to feel mystified by martyrdom on mumsnet?

[Vacua]

am not unsympathetic to demands of parenthood, running a house and bringing up children - lone parent, unsupported by ex husband and with only a little extra domestic help by way of various unreliable cleaners, so I know whereof I speak - but have seen LOADS of threads recently by mums running themselves ragged while their husbands/partners appear to do nothing and there are several things I just don't get:

1. why do people allow this to happen to them?

1. don't they realise we alone are responsible for the way others treat us, particularly in this sort of situation?

1. doesn't sympathy for something that is arguably wholly (or at very least to a pretty large extent) self-inflicted only exacerbate the problem long term?

1. isn't it a bit embarrassing to sound so martyred?

is possible as long term confirmed singleton I am missing some vital point here, am happy to be enlightened

(post and run as about 87 hours late for appointment)

But if everybody earns loads there won't be anybody to pay to do the cleaning Xenia!

Wouldn't it just be easier for lazy sexist men to do their share of the housework?

But money isn't enough for me to feel satisfied Xenia. I need much, much more from my work and wouldn't be prepared to compromise for the sake of mere money.

It may be true, Xenia, that some people could work harder to get out of a financial hole. But it is also true that some people work too hard, or too many hours, to the detriment of their health and family life. People need to find their own level.

Hard work never killed any one? It did at Auschwitz.

"But how would you deal with a person who genuinely believes he does his fair share? (We've done lists, or rather I have)"

Timesheets/time and motion studies, including both paid and unpaid work and childcare. Then see who is doing the most by hours expended. The subtext of all this is that men's time is more valuable than women's.

I just knew when I met you that we thought alike!

elastic, no nothing to do with sniffin gout quarry. Am I that bad?!

to do with steve martin film and also pictures/sculptures of whippet type dogs you come across down teh ages in art. Not very understandable, I know

Message withdrawn

Vacua that is!

If you know of any publications that would pay for my words of wisdom, Xenia, I'd be delighted to hear about them. Which ones are paying for your bons mots?

Lennygrrl - am taking argument to logical conclusion. Not comparing holocaust with work life balnce, no.

Well some women aren't content with men outsourcing the jobs they do not like. They want to see the man doing the cleaning which is an interesting take on it - in other words I as a woman don't earn enough to pay to outsource boring low grade jobs and I'm not going to let you a man, who manages to earn enough to do so, get out of doing them. I want to see you suffer too. I don't think that's very fair.

In the society we live in we don't have income equality. In China they tried paying doctors what they paid refuse workers but it didn't seem to work very well. Gordon Brown with a non working housewife from that rather sexist bit of Scotland in dour traditional fashion today is trying to keep women down by paying them to stay home - very retrograde step. Perhaps he should offer the pay only to men so that couples ensure more women get better jobs.

On whose time is valuable - mine is very valuable in terms of payment per hour worked and I suppose most people work these things out on some kind of basis like that. If I earn £240 an hour or whatever then there are a lot of things it makes sense for me to outsource. If I earned £5 an hour or whatever the NMW is now then that would be very different - same with any woman or man who earns. Childcare and housework are boring low paid and of low status so not surprising most people don't want to do too much of them whether they're male or female.

Tough one.

My dh is a pita at times but I consdier myself to be very lucky to have him, a happy family, 3 fab kids, a lovely home and security. I have only ever slagged him off on mn once and that was for crashing my car and not apologising and telling me I was crap at cleaning .... - the general concensus was that he needed a sharp kick in the balls and putting back in his place!

I see it as a balance and would really love the opportunity right now to go out and start a business or get a job but am stuckas to where to go and what to do - I don't consider myself a martyr and tied to the sink - but I do want my family to stay together.

DS3 awake ... must stop feeding him at night ....

Must think of how to become very rich rather than pissing about on mn!

And, lennygrrl, I was reminded because the gates of Auschwitz bore the legend "Arbeit Macht Frei", ie, work makes you free. Obviously, the opposite was true there.

I don't think childcare is boring - if it's my own children.

Xenia for me cleaning is part of my emotional health and well being. I know it's not for everyone but I want to clean up my own mess and teach my kids to do the same as I think it's healthy in a holistic sense. I would also have a problem relating to people who did what you call 'Low Grade Jobes' because I'd feel I was abusing them and disrespecting them.

I think that if one partner is a SAHP and the other is in paid employment then it's not entirely unreasonable for the one at home to be doing more of the household work. WHere the problems get really bad is when the person in paid employment thinks that bringing home money entitles you to work a 5-day week whereas the SAHP is supposed to work a 24/7 week for subsistence wages. IDeally, if one of you'd doing 9-5 Mon-Fri and the other is at home with the DC, then one of you should have Saturday free to do whatever you like, and the other should have SUnday ie both of you are working a 6-day week.

Back - amazingly managed just water and no milk and has gone back to sleep - hurrah!

Anyway, I have to tend to agree with Xenia on this - dh works a 40 hour week and is the breadwinner - I will never earn what he earns ( despite my present aspirations) - so while I get him to help out - he is really totally fantastic at cooking - so would rather he worked and made nice food and I do the cleaning (how I like it done)

or madamez - you could spend time together as a whole family at the weekend!

i for one love running my home and looking after my kids but if we listen to you xenia i am in the minority?

Jeez women have been wrestling with this for nearly 40 years and we still don't seem to be any further forward:

The Politics of Housework

Elasticwoman, I think it was a fair point you made. Xenia seems to live in a world where every earns £240 an hour and anybody who doesn't isn't worth considering and apparently doesn't work very hard. I know people who have been killed by hard work - the union I used to work for represented people with asbestosis - the employers' insurers were dragging out their court cases in the hope that they would die off before they got an award.

I thought Xenia was saying that SAHP shouldn't complain about doing the work when someone else was out earning the money? I must have missed a few posts!

I love my house but hand on heart

I HATE FUCKING CLEANING AND IRONING

(((just had to get that off my chest)))

And when I have another baby I will get a cleaner and ironer. Dh has promised!

Elizabetth: Know what you mean re The Politics Of Housework. Especially the male approach of 'This is too trivial to discuss' (subtext: Just shut up about it and keep doing it, will you?)

Octo: indeed you could spend time together as a family - but it is absolutely essential for any adult's mental health to have at least one block of time in the week to do stuff that's just for yourself. SO the person who has been working for an employer all week is not being unreasonable to want (say) an afternoon or morning off at the weekend to pursue a hobby JUST AS LONG AS IT'S UNDERSTOOD that the person who has been doing the housework/childcare all week is equally entitled to some free time for self-indulgence.

I'm going to ignore the 240 quid an hour thing because it's so out of the realm of most people it's not worth discussing.

The thing is that even if you outsource the 'boring' stuff, there's still loads to be done. I work pretty much fulltime, my DS is in nursery and I have a cleaner. I still spend hours doing laundry (because my DS does poo over rather a lot of clothes), tidying, putting things away and getting bags packed for school, shopping etc.

And that's without the cooking.

Mostly it's women that do all of that - regardless of whether they are SAHMs or WOHMs.

Sorry Madamez - I agree - it was adding to your comment I think time out for adults - even the one who works is vital. Dh plays golf at the weekend and I tend to wander off into Bath and have coffee/window shop/ get hair cut or just wander around! I really should do exercise too ... new year and all that!

Mercy - if one half of a couple (doesn't matter whether it is the man or the woman) provides a decent income for the whole family and works long hours, do you think that person should also be doing a substantial amount of housework?