to feel mystified by martyrdom on mumsnet?

[Vacua]

am not unsympathetic to demands of parenthood, running a house and bringing up children - lone parent, unsupported by ex husband and with only a little extra domestic help by way of various unreliable cleaners, so I know whereof I speak - but have seen LOADS of threads recently by mums running themselves ragged while their husbands/partners appear to do nothing and there are several things I just don't get:

1. why do people allow this to happen to them?

1. don't they realise we alone are responsible for the way others treat us, particularly in this sort of situation?

1. doesn't sympathy for something that is arguably wholly (or at very least to a pretty large extent) self-inflicted only exacerbate the problem long term?

1. isn't it a bit embarrassing to sound so martyred?

is possible as long term confirmed singleton I am missing some vital point here, am happy to be enlightened

(post and run as about 87 hours late for appointment)

Elizabeth - no, if the cleaner doesn't show up, I would never ask my DP to step in. He has a big, busy, stressful job and he doesn't have any space, time or energy left to do those things after work.

Quite honestly it doesn't kill me to do a bit more one week (like this week, the cleaner didn't come because of the holidays). I would be being incredibly trivial and childish were I to insist on him ironing his shirts because the cleaner didn't show.

In our household, the deal is that I manage it. I can buy as much or as little service as I want - if I wanted a full-time maid, I could have one (but I don't). My partner neither cares how it gets done or what it costs just as long as it's done. That's fine with me.

Oh and Elizabeth - I never wrote that my cleaner ought to be grateful. I wrote that she is grateful.

Not quite the same thing.

Xenia, I've read here you saying "Childcare and housework are boring low paid and of low status so not surprising most people don't want to do too much of them whether they're male or female."

and you love to spend an hour maybe two with your children a day but no more

what I'm confused about is this, if you feel like this about children, why did you have 5?? I'd have thought one would have been your limit?

of course its none of my beeswax, but genuinely I don't get it?

It's the regular commitment to pay a cleaner each week that puts me off having one. Cost and commitment - even if I suppose the cost is not huge.

If you commit to paying your electricity bill by direct debit, you can cancel your dd for a month or two if things are tight without it personally affecting anyone but yourself. Having someone rely on you for their weekly wages is a greater responsibility.

snowfun, many people have asked the same question in the past and never been given a straight answer, i myself shall never understand it!

WRT Anna's partner not doing the housework if the cleaner turns up, as I recall Anna is a SAHM, so probably sees the housework as inculded in her duties, as do I.

If one partner, be it male or female works longer hours thn surely it is only fair the other partner takes on a larger share of household duties?? I don't see how that has ny bearing on equality.

As for this constant degradation of cleaning staff which seems to be at the forefront of your mind Elizabetth, my partners mother is currently a phlebotomist at a childrens hospital, she however has decided to start up her own cleaning company in which her and her husband will be doing equal amounts of the job, this is because after myself and my partner moved house, the landlord charged us for the 'cleaning' of the property, even though MIL had spent a few hours cleaning it for us (she likes cleaning!) and she realised that it is actually a lucrative business.

Would she be 'exploiting' herself?

it's been busy on here innit, I find myself sgreeing a bit with elizabetth about the discrepant cleaner/dustmen pay by local authorities - but private cleaning at £7.50 - £8.50 per hour is not exploitive at the individual level. the wider societal stuff is not lost on me, but change of that magnitude takes ages and ages and is just one of those massive multi-faceted problems.

anyway just wanted to make the point that I've been exploited by cleaners - I started paying one by direct debit a month in advance and of course she stopped coming having pocketed a month's pay GRRR. another one, her English was very poor, started billing me for 8 or more hours a week above what we had agreed!

On the question asked for me ask 99% of the men in the UK and ask your husbands. Deride them for having children and working. That's all you're doing to me and it just shows how sexist people are.

Many many parents love their children and are happy to spend an hour or two a day with them. I adore mine and it's great having five but I have lots of other things in my life like interesting work and hobbies too. You don't love a husband less if you only spend an hour or so a day with him rather than 24/7 and the same with children. I've spent huge amounts of time in the last 23 years with my children and I love it but I can't understand how any sane clever interesting woman would want to be with even 3 under 5s from 8am to 8pm. It's just incredibly boring and repetitive and women have always outsourced it or shared it with the child's siblings, grandparents or others in your tribe etc.

On cleaners I just had a call from a 94 year old to get a reference from me... wow, she was so clear in how she spoke and wanted to recruit someone I've used. Nothing wrong with cleaning at all except that it usually doesn't give you the money some other jobs
do and thus fewer choices in life, although more than in some less flexible jobs.

hear, hear, xenia.

but xenia, my h works, but still doesnt want to only spend 1-2hrs with the kids, he'd love to be there full time but it isnt viable.

just because people work doesnt mean they dont want to be with their children, whereas you happily admit you don't like spending any length of time with your children and i find that rather sad and hard to understand why you would have 5.

On the cleaner/dustman difference in pay, our local council and I believe all other councils too, is in the process of re-evaluating traditionally poorly paid jobs. Many unskilled and semi skilled jobs that women tend to do, like cleaning, cooking school meals, assisting in classrooms, care assistant etc are being reassesed against often higher paid 'male' jobs. Apparently the rate of pay will be higher. Some council workers are getting a back payment going back up to 7 years.

I've really only skimmed this thread so huge apologies , as all i have read has been fascinating, and every one has made some truly great points. I've agreed with all that coldizts has said, amongst many others

Without going into the deeper issues which have been brought up here, I just wanted to comment on the OP... I really feel that often MN nad the web in general, is used as a true, and often very cathartic venting ground for many people. women on here, are able to really get off their chests issues and problems that in RL they feel they cannot talk about, moan about, address, or discuss with anyone in their RL social or family circle for fear of judgement, or even (shock horror) hearing something they either dont want to hear or are not ready to hear.

In a large amount of cases, if women who post these threads, were actually able, or ready to leave their partners, then they would. The fact is that most do not want to leave, cannot leave, or are not quite ready to leave. Being able to rant, vent, shout or whatever you want to call it, about the issue, it can truly make a difference. The difference between repressing feelings and just 'getting on with it' and releasing it, and perhaps getting some constructive advice. Even maybe just getting the simplest, 'i'm sorry you are having a shit time' sympathy, empathy etc can make a world of difference. Just knowing you are not alone, that there is someone out there who either understands, or will just listen is of huge importance when life is not going how you had hoped or wanted. Sometimes the advice given, or the empathy expressed can be vital building blocks to a persons self esteem, and in fact, may even be the catalyst to a woman leaving a bullying or in-balanced, or generally miserable relationship. Though often, as i've said, may simply just be a stage on which they can release and vent pent up frustration, and safely.

my only concern with this thread, and I'm not having a go in the slightest, is that people on here may think twice about posting things which may be viewed as pathetic, or be judged in a way that they already feel judged...
when this is the reason for doing so in the first place.

Tea and sympathy goes an awfully long way, even in the virtual world you know

although, having read a little more of the thread, I see that it wnet slightly off topic and rather into a debate about cleaners and demeaning jobs and much more, other than the original post. Sorry for adding in my comments which now seem out of context,

Yes we did get a bit off topic. Huge numbers of men pretend they would love to be a housewife with the children for 12 hours whilst their wife was out working in sole charge of 3 under 4s but they are mostly lying if they say that and they rarely choose to be home even if they could instead send their wife out to work. Lots of us are happy with the balance we achieve. I don't think there's some heavenly nirvana for a parent of under 5s which is I am alone with my baby from 7am to 7pm and this is heaven on earth. Lots of parents of either gender couldn't stand that. Of course sometimes we want a bit more time than we have with them but not huge hours after hours with very little ones. It's just dull. I did find the 7 days we just spent skiing together very good but we did have some breaks. We came back to the hotel by about 4 and then we'd chill out sometimes alone, just needing peace and space. I like time to think, relax and not have children around and on me all day long.

That's exactly it, Susiecutie, Tea and Sympathy does go along way.

Nothing wrong with a bit of a moan when you're feeling a bit put-upon and frustrated. Someone comes on here, says 'there, there' and everything is OK again.

Got nothing to do with being a martyr, more to do with being knackered, grumpy and wanting to have someone to talk to. I always felt better for a bit of a whinge about DP, but I've stopped doing that on here because it wasn't taken for what it was.

hopefully it is ok to question this sort of thing without anyone feeling too uncomfortable to ever post about it again - I think the biggest gap in my understanding arises from the gulf between single parents and couples. It is difficult to imagine being in that sort of situation when you've been single for a long long time in just the same way that people who are part of a couple struggle to envisage themselves living as a single parent.

I've been in both camps. Married for 19 years with faitly equitable help and hopefully not martrydom on either side and then single for 4 years or whatever it is.

Women often want to talk. They don't want solutions from a man -they just really want someone to pretend to listen to them even if his wavelengths mean he doesn't actually hear much of what is said. That's a bit different from the real martyrs who moan about everything to everyone and yet effect no changes.

Xenia - but everyday life is just like your ski-ing holiday - you aren't glued to each other every hour of the day.

I've spent the past two weeks on holiday, with my daughter also on holiday the whole time, one week with my stepsons around and ten days my partner. So we've had plenty of togetherness, but that didn't mean we were actually doing things together every minute. Children really don't need their parents with them in the same room to benefit from their parents being there and available if needed.

Depends on the age. If you left my 2 year old nephew for about 2 minutes he'd probably destroy anything he can reach. Obviously not all 2 year olds are like that but very small children need and desreve close supervision and attention particularly if you have 3 under 4 as we had. You can hardly get to the toilet never mind read the front page of the newspaper if you're minding 3 under 4s including a baby for a morning. Entirely different now with my 9 year olds and the older ones.

4 or 5 for most families is the water shed when you start to be able to do things whilst the child is in the house which don't involve the child. I keep telling my younger siblings who have younger children there is this change and it's easier.

Xenia - you are probably right that it depends on the child and the family.

I'm afraid I am always pretty perplexed at those threads where posters say that their children can't leave them alone for a minute. Our family is not like that at all - my daughter has had the run of this flat since we moved here when she was 11 months old and even at that age played alone while I had a bath in peace. And my sister's children are like that too - she happily leaves her 9 and 6 year old together playing cricket or in the garden or football in the road while she goes out, and all her neighbours in Amsterdam would leave children that age too. And her 3 year old is like my daughter. Is that character/genes or upbringing or culture? Who knows...

It's a fascinating issue. My sister apparently cannot leave hers and ever get any peace - they are 6 now, except occasionally if they're watching a DVD. Mine have been more able to play on their own - so is that because I say great you're bored go and find something to do and she entertains hers? Or is the different personality of the child? But even with me if they were under about 3 they tended to need attention. Actually one issue is fights with under 5s. Obviousy you try not to be interfering all the time but 2 year olds can kill the baby so you do have constant police man type duties as a parent simply to preserve the lives of siblings!

I can sympathise with fights - my sister and I fought as children. Though my stepsons never fight one another (and never have, apparently, though they go for it in the playground) - much to my partner's and his mother's bemusement, as apparently my partner and his younger brother fought tooth and nail right through their childhood. Why?

I'd love to get all six of my siblings together one day and have a mass fight, it was the best bit about growing up or one of the best bits anyway. One of my brothers had to have stitches after I smashed a glass over his head. This is normal and healthy, my middle daughter hit her sister in the face with a plate of pancakes once. It's all part of growing up with a healthy attitude to conflict.

healthy attitude to conflict PMSL

Crikey Vacua - hitting another person with a glass is a healthy attitude to conflit? You are taking the piss, right?