To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

araiwa
I'm not sure really what you want to know

I'd have thought the best person to ask would be them 

I did start to ask , but they said they felt it was triggering to explain it but there was lots of stuff on the internet for me to find. But I genuinely have looked and I cannot find much at all.

^^

It's all so bloody confusing! I'm finding this thread hard to follow (albeit alongside DHs waffling about his stupid game that I don't care about). My point being though, I'm not sure what age they teach, but if adults struggle to get their heads around it surely children will too? I don't think any of my own (primary aged) children would make head nor tail of this or be able to remember, and my DS who has ASD would probably get quite anxious about it as he hates getting into trouble or making anyone upset, especially if he doesn't understand what he has done wrong.

I don't know if I'm being naive, but I work for the NHS and everyone in my workplace wears a name badge with their first name/preferred name only on it. If all teachers just asked children to call them by their first name or a preferred name rather than worrying about titles or pronouns, would this not save a lot of hassle and embarrassment, especially as the staff member finds it triggering speaking about it.

I believe schools should teach pupils to be respectful of others but I really do not feel that cluttering their heads with all of this is beneficial. From what I remember, when I was at school I would of thought non binary was something to do with ICT. Besides understanding what being gay/lesbian/bisexual meant, we had no clue, yet being an adolescent was enough of a minefield.

I apologise if I've missed a comment saying they teach adults or something and most of my rant is therefore irrelevant! it just frustrated me to read, as I am in agreement with those who have said gender is a social construct and surely no one needs to know the ins and outs of someone's perception of themselves before being able to address them!

Those of you who are advocating for ‘be kind’ and people ‘respecting pronouns.’ Do you say this for whatever pronoun a person uses?
There are cat pronouns and also demon pronouns. Should students have to be calling their teacher ‘cat self’ ?
And if not why not? They are no less a cat than they are not a woman.

@AryaStarkWolf
Yes you share the same gender identity but your "cis privilege" is you not even realising ............
Have you just dared to assume someone's gender identity? Isn't that literal violence?

@lifeturnsonadime

I'm very very uncomfortable that a member of the teaching profession is trying to coerce children in complying with language that doesn't reflect reality.

How can it ever be appropriate to teach children to say things that their eyes tell them is not true.

How can it ever be appropriate to punish them if they don't tell lies?

Exactly this!!!!

Look at me everyone! I'm not like you boring old farts, although yes I'm a straight female I've managed to shoehorn myself into the LGBT community by navel gazing long enough to believe that changing my pronouns will mean I will no longer suffer oppression due to my sex, for I am now a They.

Instead of being looked over and ignored like you silly women, I'll now whine and complain when my special terms aren't used and you'll have to listen to ME or it's literal violence. If I complain up the chain I'll get you investigated. There's also a certain way you have to ask me about me but I'm in no way obliged to help you, you'll have to spend your own free time educating yourself and thinking all about ME.

Meeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

🙄 It's exhausting is what it is. Defy stereotypes all you like, all day long, it's a good thing! What's not a good thing is believing this has any effect on your SEX, which does not change, or that you've defied yourself into a state of being sexless which is absolute bollocks. And then strong arming everyone around you to dance to your merry tune and kick off when they don't. Think what you like, don't force anyone else to think the same, and definitely don't go round forcing gender woo onto kids.

And don't even get me started on neo-pronouns

@terryleather

They is very upset by the mistakes. I don't really know how these people are actually able to function.

Oh they and their Cluster B siblings in arms function just fine while they are able to weaponise their fragile identities to control and dominate all interactions, including interactions with children which is beyond the pale quite frankly.

Trying to facilitate these individuals is a fools errand as they will never be satisfied - that's the whole point.

Yep.

Sad bullies of children. Very inadequate individuals. One day we will see this for what it is and end the madness and stop pandering to the crazy.

Oh God. What the hell is a neo pronoun

I'm presuming this is the first teaching job they've had? If not, what did the pupils at their previous establishment call them? (Directly to their face, I mean.)

If this had been a thing when I was a kid I'd have lived in daily fear of getting it wrong and probably just kept my mouth shut and not participated at all in that person's lessons though I'd definitely have had plenty of private opinions and it would almost certainly have affected how I felt about, and how well I did, at their subject.

I think the suggestions to contact the two organisations mentioned previously for guidance are very sensible.

I'm also curious about what subjects they teach - I'm guessing it's not something like some modern languages (French, say, where it matters if words are classed as masculine or feminine at least when you're writing the language) or a minefield subject like biology.

And I also wonder how much learning those poor kids are experiencing, call me old fashioned (in this respect. ⁰I work for an organisation where we bend over backwards to be accommodating and I'd put myself somewhere in the plus of LGBT etc, but I'm not at all precious about what I'm addressed as, as long as it's not Hoi You...)

Would suggesting this person be addressed as Professor, as if they were employed at Hogwarts, be neutral enough for them or is that too Potterphile? That's about as neutral a term as I can think of in English apart from something like Teacher or Teach. In Japanese the term sensei is used to address all teachers and I'm sure there are other languages where there are equivalents, I just can't think of them off the top of my head.

Or use first names, in which case wouldn't all teachers have to then be addressed by their first names, or as their full name, eg Jenny Jones or Alex Green or whatever.

And if this is causing them such consternation I would privately wonder if this teaching environment is the best match for them. Though they may be a brilliant teacher and if this is an exam subject they'll have the end of year results as an illustration.

@crochetmonkey74

Oh God. What the hell is a neo pronoun

Things like "ze" or "zir". Just be glad you haven't come across them.

Yet...

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Tempting, but sadly not an option if you are their line manager.

Indeed.

Just constantly use the Christian name ( hee hee) instead of a pronoun then there can be no confusion!

How do you pronounce Mx

If you were a student addressing your teacher fir example?

Mix Smith, could you help me with this?

Or Emex Smith could you help me with this?

@crochetmonkey74

Oh God. What the hell is a neo pronoun

Made up ones like zem/zey/zir.

@5zeds No I’d say “she” went to the shop. In a weird twist of etiquette I would never refer to someone using a pronoun if they were there anyway. grin It was the height of bad manners when I was a child.

I agree. But something I have observed is - usually among women chatting - is I've heard them say something like "I was going to buy X but he wasn't impressed" or "I'll have to ask him" or "well, he says ..." without referring to the male person by name first. In which case how are you expected to know who they are talking about? But it seems 'understood' that it is their male partner. I've heard it a lot and find it odd. Is this a thing?

@CaroleFuckingBaskin

How do you pronounce Mx

If you were a student addressing your teacher fir example?

Mix Smith, could you help me with this?

Or Emex Smith could you help me with this?

Imagine if their surname was Little.

OP, at the end of all these pages of navel gazing, I hope your teacher is good at the job! Certainly causing enough trouble!
And I wrote that without any pronoun, except I, and that's not up for a trendy grab.

@MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking

Look at me everyone! I'm not like you boring old farts, although yes I'm a straight female I've managed to shoehorn myself into the LGBT community by navel gazing long enough to believe that changing my pronouns will mean I will no longer suffer oppression due to my sex, for I am now a They.

Instead of being looked over and ignored like you silly women, I'll now whine and complain when my special terms aren't used and you'll have to listen to ME or it's literal violence. If I complain up the chain I'll get you investigated. There's also a certain way you have to ask me about me but I'm in no way obliged to help you, you'll have to spend your own free time educating yourself and thinking all about ME.

Meeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

🙄 It's exhausting is what it is. Defy stereotypes all you like, all day long, it's a good thing! What's not a good thing is believing this has any effect on your SEX, which does not change, or that you've defied yourself into a state of being sexless which is absolute bollocks. And then strong arming everyone around you to dance to your merry tune and kick off when they don't. Think what you like, don't force anyone else to think the same, and definitely don't go round forcing gender woo onto kids.

And don't even get me started on neo-pronouns

This.

The world has gone mad - so many individuals saying the energy of others with their ridiculousness.

@crochetmonkey74

Oh God. What the hell is a neo pronoun

According to Bristol uni (!) you can be catgender and have emoji pronouns and lecturers should respect this.

🙀🤢

@TheMarzipanDildo
Sounds like their guidance was written by a GC feminist having a laugh…….

What would Magdalen have said? Something about their minds being so open their brains have called out.

@ImJustMadAboutSaffron

If the person isn’t present you could mention their name and then continue using he/she as shorthand, but only until you mention another person of the same sex.

If they are present you should use their name throughout.

If you didn’t know their sex AND they weren’t present you would use their position to describe them, (Eg “the Head Teacher”, or “Sarah’s Partner”).

If you didn’t know their sex AND they were present, surely you’d ask them their name?

I’m not sure how an individual would hear themselves misgendered through pronouns.

*fallen out!

They are creating so much drama it'll put you off recruiting anybody else 'non binary' for sure.

Look at me everyone! I'm not like you boring old farts, although yes I'm a straight female I've managed to shoehorn myself into the LGBT community by navel gazing long enough to believe that changing my pronouns will mean I will no longer suffer oppression due to my sex, for I am now a They.

Instead of being looked over and ignored like you silly women, I'll now whine and complain when my special terms aren't used and you'll have to listen to ME or it's literal violence. If I complain up the chain I'll get you investigated. There's also a certain way you have to ask me about me but I'm in no way obliged to help you, you'll have to spend your own free time educating yourself and thinking all about ME.

Meeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

I think you just summarised Laurie Penny's book!