To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

According to TikTok, the saying is "even when I'm fem, I'm still a them".

Also: "non-binary people don't owe you androgyny".

So they don't owe us androgyny, but we owe them androgynous pronouns?

Haha, I hadn’t even noticed I’d said non binary woman. It’s so confusing. It’s like that game where you have to say the colour that a word is written in rather than the word itself. It’s surprisingly hard.

Oddly, if a female teenager wants an elective mastectomy, these people never leap in to reassure her that she can be non-binary without surgery and that she doesn't owe the world androgyny.

Crochetmonkey, I think you’ve had some very good advice on the thread in terms of how to manage the situation in practical terms (be on your guard with this colleague, document everything etc).

But I would really like to invite you again to look at this a bit more from the POV of the students here, especially as you have acknowledged that their well being is unequivocally your top priority.

You said in one post, I consider myself a very liberal person- I don't judge , i try to do what is asked of me to make people feel supported and comfortable, and I applaud your kindness and tolerance, which clearly spring from a real care for others and a desire to do right by them.

But problems arise when us doing what is asked of us by one person (or group of people) to make them feel supported and comfortable then makes other people - people who are potentially more vulnerable and more in need of support - feel uncomfortable, distressed and/or unsupported.

You also said in another post, and the students are just continually being corrected (not necessarily a problem) but they feel very guilty and some of our kids really worry about being seen as intlolerant or upsetting

I think the continually being corrected is actually a problem in itself - anyone who has experience of living with a critical parent or partner, for example, can attest to how it wears you down to constantly be told you’re doing something wrong. Especially when what you’re doing is actually a perfectly reasonable thing to do: when someone looks and sounds in every way like a female person, most of us would struggle to remember at all times, in all circumstances, not to refer to them as such.

And on top of that you know that there are young people here actually feeling guilty for “failing” to remember that this person doesn’t want anyone to recognise the fact she’s female, even though it’s apparently impossible not to recognise that fact when you are with her.

This is causing them genuine distress and worry. And I’m willing to bet that the vast majority of those feeling guilty and worried about this are themselves female, given that girls are socialised far more to be compliant and to “be kind” to others, often at their own expense.

Is this fair on them, especially given how challenging life can be during the teenage years anyway, how much pressure there is on young people, how much they will already be dealing with?

Like you and like many women commenting here, I always considered myself to be politically liberal, on the side of equality, tolerance and social justice. I am heartbroken actually to see the values I always believed in being co-opted in the service of an ideology that is at root, IMO, regressive and misogynistic (and also homophobic).

There is a real clash of rights here. And you have to ask whose rights take precedence.The right of this teacher to demand others verbally observe her “gender identity”, no matter how taxing for them, or how much distress it causes them when they can’t always remember? Or the right of the young people not to be burdened with this additional obligation in order to validate one of the adults who should be supporting them?

This is an issue that can’t be resolved by simply trying to be kind to everyone. There needs to be some real thought about the deeper implications and ramifications of this ideology that everyone is supposed to sign up to in the name of “liberalism”. Life sadly isn’t that straightforward.

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

Crochetmonkey, I think you’ve had some very good advice on the thread in terms of how to manage the situation in practical terms (be on your guard with this colleague, document everything etc).

But I would really like to invite you again to look at this a bit more from the POV of the students here, especially as you have acknowledged that their well being is unequivocally your top priority.

You said in one post, I consider myself a very liberal person- I don't judge , i try to do what is asked of me to make people feel supported and comfortable, and I applaud your kindness and tolerance, which clearly spring from a real care for others and a desire to do right by them.

But problems arise when us doing what is asked of us by one person (or group of people) to make them feel supported and comfortable then makes other people - people who are potentially more vulnerable and more in need of support - feel uncomfortable, distressed and/or unsupported.

You also said in another post, and the students are just continually being corrected (not necessarily a problem) but they feel very guilty and some of our kids really worry about being seen as intlolerant or upsetting

I think the continually being corrected is actually a problem in itself - anyone who has experience of living with a critical parent or partner, for example, can attest to how it wears you down to constantly be told you’re doing something wrong. Especially when what you’re doing is actually a perfectly reasonable thing to do: when someone looks and sounds in every way like a female person, most of us would struggle to remember at all times, in all circumstances, not to refer to them as such.

And on top of that you know that there are young people here actually feeling guilty for “failing” to remember that this person doesn’t want anyone to recognise the fact she’s female, even though it’s apparently impossible not to recognise that fact when you are with her.

This is causing them genuine distress and worry. And I’m willing to bet that the vast majority of those feeling guilty and worried about this are themselves female, given that girls are socialised far more to be compliant and to “be kind” to others, often at their own expense.

Is this fair on them, especially given how challenging life can be during the teenage years anyway, how much pressure there is on young people, how much they will already be dealing with?

Like you and like many women commenting here, I always considered myself to be politically liberal, on the side of equality, tolerance and social justice. I am heartbroken actually to see the values I always believed in being co-opted in the service of an ideology that is at root, IMO, regressive and misogynistic (and also homophobic).

There is a real clash of rights here. And you have to ask whose rights take precedence.The right of this teacher to demand others verbally observe her “gender identity”, no matter how taxing for them, or how much distress it causes them when they can’t always remember? Or the right of the young people not to be burdened with this additional obligation in order to validate one of the adults who should be supporting them?

This is an issue that can’t be resolved by simply trying to be kind to everyone. There needs to be some real thought about the deeper implications and ramifications of this ideology that everyone is supposed to sign up to in the name of “liberalism”. Life sadly isn’t that straightforward.

Yes I have been thinking deeply about it. I think for speed of posting, I may have used reductive language but I definitely take the point and I think that this is an ideological debate that will gain in importance over the next few years

This is an extremely tricky situation for you to navigate OP. The non-binary person (who has mental health issues) will react negatively to you if you approach them with anything other than total agreement and validation. They have several highly aggressive and wealthy lobby groups they can call on who will attack you personally and go after your career with bullying/discrimination allegations if this person decides you are anything other than unquestioningly obedient to their requests.

But. Your students have rights too, in particular not to be subjected to the very harmful consequences of the cognitive dissonance involved in being forced to say thst something/someone is not the reality they perceive.

So basically to sum up, you are going to have to choose between the whims of your batty selfish colleague or the rights of your students to describe reality.

I do not envy you! If I was in your position I would contact Safe Schools Alliance for advice, or Transgender Trend.

I am so confused: is this person biologically male or female? Is their partner male or female? I'm trying to understand the issue - are they a biologically female, presenting as female, in a relationship with a male?

Yes I have been thinking deeply about it. I think for speed of posting, I may have used reductive language but I definitely take the point and I think that this is an ideological debate that will gain in importance over the next few years

Glad to read this update, good luck with it all - and I second the advice from Thewindwhispers re contacting Transgender Trend or particularly Safe Schools Alliance for support:

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

@UsernameIsNotAvailableRightNow

People saying things like "they is plural" do you never say in response to a question like "where's Sarah gone?" Something like "they went to the shop"

I probably half the time say he/she and half they just in reference to people in general.

I think this whole none binary thing is stupid but I don't understand peoples problem with saying they generally.

If asked where Sarah had gone, I'd always respond "she". I only ever use "they" in the singular form when the sex of the person/animal is uncertain: "Have you seen the doctor, what did they say?"; "That dog is barking again, I wish they'd shut up".

[quote Lostinafjord]@DdraigGoch
OK, I was just trying to guess where they could be coming from[/quote]
That they may be batshit is a possible conclusion of course.

@InTheNameOfAllThatIsHonest

I am so confused: is this person biologically male or female? Is their partner male or female? I'm trying to understand the issue - are they a biologically female, presenting as female, in a relationship with a male?

The person in question is biologically female, aka a woman, living with someone who is biologically male, aka a man.

Although the partner aspect is kind of irrelevant really given that that’s about sexuality, and the issue here is gender identity. The two are not actually connected but are often conflated, as in “LGBT” - a deliberate tactic by trans rights activists to give their cause added numbers and credibility.

There is, incidentally, a movement by some LGB people away from the idea of the “LGBT community” and back to separate LGB rights groups, such as the LGB Alliance - partly because the two groups often have entirely separate concerns, but also because there is real homophobia embedded in gender identity ideology, which says that being gay is a about “same gender” attraction rather than same sex.

So for example you can have a biologically male person, penis and all, who “identifies as a woman”, and if that person is attracted to women, that person is now recognised as a “lesbian” by LGBT groups.

Biologically female lesbians who have no sexual or romantic interest in anyone with a penis, even when the penis-haver identifies as a woman, are denounced as “transphobic” and banned from lesbian dating apps, for example.

Homophobia.

Some further reading for anyone who wants to know more about the homophobia/lesbophobia implicit in the “trans rights” movement:

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/lesbian-women-talk-about-meeting-transbians-on-women-only-dating-sites/

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/11/as-one-of-the-lesbians-quoted-in-this-article-this-backlash-has-hurt-deeply-kat-howard-reflects-on-her-bbc-interview-on-the-cotton-ceiling/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/05/jo-bartosh-meets-legendary-us-gay-rights-campaigner-fred-sargeant-we-need-a-new-movement-of-gay-lesbian-and-bisexual-people-run-for-and-by-ourselves/

A bit like the "anxiety" of a few years ago, "non binary" is something you can claim as a get-out for all manner of stuff you don't feel like doing.

@UsernameIsNotAvailableRightNow

People saying things like "they is plural" do you never say in response to a question like "where's Sarah gone?" Something like "they went to the shop"

I probably half the time say he/she and half they just in reference to people in general.

I think this whole none binary thing is stupid but I don't understand peoples problem with saying they generally.

If Sarah went to the shop why on earth would I say ‘they’ went to the shop? I would say that only if she took someone with her. Obviously. Because Sarah is a she and not a they. She went to the shop. Nobody would say they to mean one person. Nobody who isn’t brainwashed into the trans malarkey anyway!

Ok

I'm pretty sure people do say they sometimes to refer to one person and I can think that without being brainwashed. I know that I have said it before.
They're at the shops.
They're being a bit silly.
They're talking bollocks
Etc

You might want to chill out a bit.

I am not at all brainwashed. Far from it actually. I am part of the LGB who don't want the T involved so you might want to reign it in a bit.

@InTheNameOfAllThatIsHonest

I am so confused: is this person biologically male or female? Is their partner male or female? I'm trying to understand the issue - are they a biologically female, presenting as female, in a relationship with a male?

Non binaryness and transgenderism has nothing to do with gayness or lesbianism. Leave us out of the crazy!!!!

@UsernameIsNotAvailableRightNow

Ok

I'm pretty sure people do say they sometimes to refer to one person and I can think that without being brainwashed. I know that I have said it before.
They're at the shops.
They're being a bit silly.
They're talking bollocks
Etc

You might want to chill out a bit.

I am not at all brainwashed. Far from it actually. I am part of the LGB who don't want the T involved so you might want to reign it in a bit.

Lol sorry wasn’t ranting at you - just ranting at the universe!!

The example some else gave of the unspecified doctor being a they is valid. I’d call the dog an it.

And yes, the T is drowning the LGB.

No I’d say “she” went to the shop. In a weird twist of etiquette I would never refer to someone using a pronoun if they were there anyway. It was the height of bad manners when I was a child.

It's not very common to refer to a known person as they. Sometimes it happens, yes. I may do it, but then last week I called the cat by my sister's name, too, so...

One of the issues that doesn't often come up when people are discussing the validity of plural-they, is the implications that someone's sex is being deliberately concealed. Using they/them isn't neutral- it makes me wonder at the motivation behind this deliberate omission of information.

It was a phenomenon often noticed on relationships threads that sometimes the first sign a partner was having an affair, or wanted to have an affair, with a work colleague was extreme care over pronouns. Suddenly the they manifested: "yeah, just sending an email to Sam from work. They asked if I'd completed that report yet?"

@MostIneptThatEverStepped oh that's interesting.
A while back I was saying to a young mental health worker that I didn't really get the non-binary thing because I'd always felt neutral and hated my body at puberty but thought it a normal part of growing up. He suggested it might be useful for me to explore whether I was non-binary. I felt he shouldn't be suggesting this to vulnerable clients.

@5zeds

No I’d say “she” went to the shop. In a weird twist of etiquette I would never refer to someone using a pronoun if they were there anyway. It was the height of bad manners when I was a child.

Unless it was, in fact, the cats grandmother…..

n.b. (which here means nota bene) it is the height of bad manners to address a cat as "you". This is because servants should not directly address or question the nobility.

Instead of:
"Would you like some chicken?"
Try:
"Your lordship might like some chicken"

I completely understand the need for the next generation to push boundaries and difference themselves from older people, but what I find infuriating is this need to involve everyone else in what I can only describe as a delusion. I suppose it is a sort of Emperor's new clothes situation.
I would be perfectly happy to let people say they are whatever they please, but the idea of correcting schoolchildren and drawing them into this parallel universe is disturbing.

Even she doesn't know what it means