To ask you to explain non binary to me (genuine question)

[crochetmonkey74]

I have a new non binary person on my team at work (I am a manager)
They present as female-very much so in dress and grooming, they have a very feminine name too ,they have told me that they are heterosexual and live with their partner. However they want to be known as 'they' and the pronoun 'MX'
I am happily doing all this, I believe everyone should be comfortable and I will address people how they wish to be addressed.
I'm a teacher so my new member of the team is continually being misgendered by the students (due to the incongruity of appearance and pronoun) we have other non binary more androgynous looking staff who are not misgendered.
My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me)
I'm keen to do this right and not offend but also despite trying to read around the issue, I cant find much about non binary females who present in a feminine aspect.
This is not a bait thread or a stealth moan. It is a genuine question. Anyone got any experience with this?

I’m not non binary myself, so don’t fully understand it but once had it explained as not feeling like you fully ‘belong’ as either male or female. I’d be happy to call them whatever they wish, but like a previous PP asks - how do you actually say ‘Mx’? I’d have thought if this person just explains clearly ‘this is my name and this is how you refer to me’ students would so just that.

They don’t want to be tied down to a gender, is how I read it. As they’ve mentioned past trauma, there could also be something that’s happened to them that has made them reject the idea of being a woman.

I think we can go one of two ways with this:

1. Accept thst gender is a social construct but that in some circumstances we need to protect biological sex. Make gender much less important in the way we deal with people and realise - or even get rid of it all together.

1. Have the majority of people end up saying they’re non binary because who on earth wants to be tied to a gender stereotype?

'I did start to ask , but they said they felt it was triggering to explain it but there was lots of stuff on the internet for me to find'

Good god. Sending you lots of strength and patience to deal with this person. As someone said upthread, people who declare themselves to be 'non binary' do like to make a fuss about it

The 'binary' that they are referring to is the gender stereotypes associated with being either male or female. Examples of male stereotypes - ambitious, assertive, sporty, good with numbers. Examples of female stereotypes - kind, caring, thoughtful, loves shopping. If that all sounds like reductive regressive nonsense, it's because it is! NB people feel like they don't fit neatly with either set of stereotypes so decide they are neither male nor female but NB. Of course, as you have no doubt worked out, EVERYONE is non binary! There is nothing special about it at all. Hope that makes things a bit clearer. Sounds like you have been very kind and thoughtful so far, but don't be afraid to be assertive and set boundaries about how much labouring of the point you are prepared to listen to

@ReformedWaywardTeen

So I'm sure OP would like some sensible answers not nasty comments based on personal views.

My DD has chosen to be non-binary. They explained their choice in a reasonable fashion and they are quite androgynous in style, hair etc. They have also shortened their given name to something more in the middle. We are still learning, they are patient of us.

What can you do? There's not much you're asked to do. They don't need adaptations or special treatment. Just as they said, respect their choice to use Mx/they/them. They're clearly happy to be female presenting (and not all non-binary people are LGBTQ+ on top, many are heterosexual).

I really don't get why people get so het up about it. It's made no difference to our family dynamic at all. We just respect calling our child they and them (in fact a joke at home was to call them Cousin It, they find this hilarious).

Would you get so miffed PPs about someone telling you they are vegan?!?

The OPs situation is a little different to your DDs though, as the person is still a female presenting as a female. So I really struggle to see how they can get upset at people misgendering them as female (which appears to be the problem) and calling them Miss. All they can do in this situation is keeping correcting their students until it sinks in.

What do you need to have explained, they want to be known as they and that's all the explanation needed for you or anyone else. Anyone who asks simply state that. I'm female I use she because I'm middle aged and feel too old but love the fact that young people are challenging this, when I think about myself I don't actually identify as a "she" my partner doesn't particularly identify as a "he". I think young people are so sick of these socially constructed norms that we are meant to conform to and want more.

I am quite happy to say I am a woman and don’t feel tied to a gender stereotype. If I don’t do things that are traditionally male it is because I have no interest- not because I can’t.
So many children are ending up confused and alienated by this sort of thing.

I think it's a hard situation - if they're willing to complain about it, but not willing to explain it?

From my understanding non-binary is the hugest all encompassing term, it could mean literally anything. Personally if someone is too triggered to explain it, and would rather you get misinformation from random Google sources (loads of which will point you to talk to the person as everyone differs so much!) I'd just leave it alone.

Let them complain and sort it for themselves 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think it just means they feel neutral, neither male or female. How they dress may be because they feel a split between their body and their mind/soul? So presenting the body in a feminine way is fine to them, it's their mind/soul/sense of self that feels non-binary.

not all non-binary people are LGBTQ+ on top, many are heterosexual).

How does that work? How can you be "heterosexual" if you don't acknowledge you have a sex or that sex is physical in nature and male/female sex is a thing? Non binary doesn't just mean "gender non-conforming".

OP, I think I would say that you understand that they wish to be referred to using gender neutral pronouns and the title Mx, and that you are happy to respect that.

I would then ask what they would like you to actually do about other people forgetting or not understanding that they (your colleague) wants to be referred to in this way.

You need to understand what they actually want you to do in order to figure out whether it is (a) within your power, and (b) reasonable.

Also, being non binary is under the transgender umbrella. It is LGBTQ+ in and of itself.

I wish people would stop worrying about their gender which is a made up social construct and just concentrate on their sex. When they say it's triggering to explain what they mean, what they mean is they can't explain.

I'm married and get called Miss in school all the time. Who cares. It's wholly attention seeking and based on insecurity and trying to fit in - this is why it's such a big thing with teens.

@HiJenny35

What do you need to have explained, they want to be known as they and that's all the explanation needed for you or anyone else. Anyone who asks simply state that. I'm female I use she because I'm middle aged and feel too old but love the fact that young people are challenging this, when I think about myself I don't actually identify as a "she" my partner doesn't particularly identify as a "he". I think young people are so sick of these socially constructed norms that we are meant to conform to and want more.

There's a flip side to that; You can have short hair, love sports, be good at science and not like makeup and be female. You can like makeup, wear pink / dresses, love art and drama and be male.

But now no you can't. If a girl presents like the one I describes above she then thinks she must also present as NB or male. Not just a female who doesn't fit traditional female stereotypes. You tell me honestly which is more progressive??

@Lostinafjord

I think it just means they feel neutral, neither male or female. How they dress may be because they feel a split between their body and their mind/soul? So presenting the body in a feminine way is fine to them, it's their mind/soul/sense of self that feels non-binary.

How do you know how your soul feels?? What does a non binary sense of self feel like that is different to any other sense of self? What makes you feel female? Can you answer in anything other than stereotypes?

It does sound posturing for posturing sake I don’t care that people mistake me for a male in emails for example as I use a shortened version of my name that is a boys name. I fully identify as female . This gender thing is completely taking over work places in particular any linked with council government and education. The triggering comment is just outrageous. It’s like foisting your religious views on a person. I can’t see what they don’t say please refer to me as they Mx bit just shrug it of if folk don’t want to . Urghhhh I too would like to know how to pronounce MX too

My new staff member is a nice person but they are very aware of correcting people, and have already complained (not about me).

Stop thinking that they are nice. They are actually very controlling; trying to control what they can't control and complaining when it's not happening. They are making unnecessary work for other people (people who are already busy) whilst expecting to be the centre of attention.

Honestly I do find the whole thing confusing and as a general rule, I will use whatever pronouns a person asks me to. I do hate it though when someone presents themselves as, say, female, with a female name, identifies as hetro etc and then complains when they are misgendered.

Fair enough if they were being misgendered on purpose, but I do assume everyone is either she or a he unless I am told otherwise because 9/10 they are!

A binary consists of two things, black/white, yes/no, male/female. Humans are part of a binary and are male or female.

There is no third possibility or classification because if there were, there would be no binary to be set apart from. A binary by definition is only two options. If there is a third, it becomes a ternary.

So non-binary, as a term, is nonsense, however anyone feels about themselves, and I wish everyone happiness in their own skin.

Tbh I'm not sure what you're asking for advice about here? People who believe in gender ideology require other people to comply with their chosen language to describe themselves, which you are happy to do, as you've described.

Regarding students calling this teacher Miss instead of Mx or using she/her instead of the more awkward and unnatural "they", then unless it's done with some kind of malicious intent this teacher is going to have to get used to it. It's not something that should interfere with learning, or something that children should be punished for forgetting or making a mistake. This teacher can either ignore it, or get accustomed to a simple correction each time it happens. As a PP has mentioned, you could discuss it as a part of reflective practice, with the children's learning experience being the important point rather than the teacher's personal identity validation.

Unfortunately for this person the fact they appear as female is going to mean that a lot of people are going to address them with female pronouns.

Yes we can all try to be respectful of someone’s preferred pronouns but in this situation this would require a level of alertness and cognitive dissonance that is unrealistic to maintain at all times. Like if someone told me that from now on I must always refer to blue as red and red as blue - I could try but realistically I’d slip up a lot.

The harsh reality is that while this person is free to identify with whatever they want, but that’s where their control ends. Policing how other people identify them is outwith their control.

You can only determine your own responses to his person, not anyone else’s. So I can’t see what you are meant to do about this.

It’s all self-indulgent bollocks anyway. Your colleague is possibly not as nice as you think. If you dare put a foot wrong, you’ll find out.

I'm not surprised you're confused. I don't understand it myself. Are they rebelling against what they perceive to be gender stereotypes? In their eye can you only be a woman if you enjoy stereotypically female things?

I'd say it's somene who thinks men are masculine and women are feminine (which is nonsense of course) so the only way they wont fit the stereotypes they've got in their head is to be non binary.

Personally I think it's sex stereotyping at its worst.