Who's being a dick here, me or the nursery?

[Mehblehfeh]

DD is three and hasn't napped at home for over a year - her choice!bBut continued napping at nursery.

Bedtimes were getting significantly worse after nursery nap, and so six months ago I asked them to cut her nap. Nursery said it was hard to keep her awake when all the other kids had their naps and she was just really tired and falling asleep. Fair enough, I asked them to limit the nap instead, which sort of helped for a bit, but then they kept forgetting, and gradually it just stopped working anyway, and we went back to no sleeping till 10/11pm.

So, as DD was due to go up to the pre-school room where there was no naptime anyway, a couple of month's ago I said I really wanted the nap to stop as she wasn't sleeping till 10/11pm, and to prepare her for no nap in the new room. This was a battle with nursery who were not keen but eventually agreed. Was brilliant, bedtimes were quick and easy, DD getting a solid 11/12 hours a night.

She's now started in the pre-school room and...has been napping. Apparently they have story time after lunch and she drops off. I have asked them to keep her awake and explained loads of times that this means she's not sleeping till 10/11pm, and so is losing out on three hours sleep a night for the sake of 45 mins in the afternoon. She's then tired the next day, so even more likely to fall asleep, and so it goes on.

Nursery have basically said if she's falling asleep and calling her name doesn't wake her up, they won't do anything else to rouse her or keep her awake, and won't take her out to do something else at story time. I really do understand their reluctance to wake a tired kid, but it's totally detrimental to her wellbeing as it means she is getting much less sleep.

Would I be unreasonable to really push them on this? Or is this usual nursery policy?

What's the bedtime routine like?
What happens at weekends?
Does she get excited on a nursery day so wants to keep on playing maybe? Or does she wind down in the evenings.

You could see if you can do some half days at nursery so you can keep her awake in the afternoons? You can't really expect the nursery staff to do it.

YANBU. She is tired. Because she's not getting enough sleep at night. Because they're letting her nap.

Could you take 2 weeks annual leave and keep her off nursery to try and break the nap habit?

Give them lunch them sitting them down for a story is a recipe for napping!

YANBU. At 3 it's understandable that nap times impact on nighttime sleep.

The nursery should be doing more. Lunch then out for some fresh air perhaps!

@JustBlethering

Could you take 2 weeks annual leave and keep her off nursery to try and break the nap habit?

This is a good idea.

I don’t understand PP saying it’s cruel to keep her awake when they know that letting her have a short nap means she is losing out on 3-4 hours’ sleep overnight, meaning she’s exhausted the next day!

In answer to your original question, OP, I would absolutely insist that they stop her from napping, emphasising the negative impact it’s having on her overall to be so tired. I would probably keep her off nursery for a few days if I could and send her back in refreshed so that she isn’t so exhausted that she wants to nap that much, to see if you can break the cycle. Poor little thing!

When you talk about after lunch at school that includes a break outside, maybe that is the same at nursery, so the story may not be immediately after their lunch, but a wind down exercise after they have been outside

It's not cruel to give her quiet time activities so that she consciously decides not to go to sleep with her peers. However if a child is falling asleep during play, meals or any other activity and an adult is prodding them to stay awake, then yes that's cruelty.

They can’t just focus on your child to the detriment of all the other kids. If you want 1:1 get a nanny or at least a childminder where there will be fewer children. You get what you pay for unfortunately.

DC1 dropped maps at 20 months or we'd still be up at midnight, which is obviously a terrible routine for a toddler.

Nursery were quite unhelpful for a while about that, and putting him down for a sleep which he would take sometimes, and it was awful. After about 4 months they finally stopped making him nap after lunch and took him to play instead. That is what was best for the child.

They need to do something else with her if she falls asleep at story time. There’s enough workers in there. I guess she’s more tired at nursery as more active but at 3 it’s time to drop the daytime sleep anyway for most kids. I remember telling them to limit the sleep for mine to 45 mins max as they were not going to bed on time and as you say it’s a vicious cycle

I used to ask the nursery to limit/stop naps for the same reason but they really can't prevent your child from falling asleep, it's not fair on your DC if they're so tired.

Do the weekends not 'reset' her tiredness on a Monday or whenever she first goes in to nursery during the week? Try having a really chilled weekend (at home, pottering around with a bit of arts and more creative activities with a small walk/play in the park but nothing too extreme) with normal bedtime and then ask them to keep her more active after the story.

It may help start off some more positive sleep habits. Alternatively, you could do this over a week and do what you would normally if you can get some time off of work?

Other than the above, I'd try a walk before bedtime or a car drive around bedtime if it helps for now and if you're really desperate to get her to sleep. Unfortunately, the routine will need to start from home to sort this cycle out.

If she is doing 8 hour days in a nursery environment she will be far more tired than at home. Nursery is busy and active all day, lots of negotiating with peers and new learning to process. We don’t actively encourage any pre-school children to sleep but some younger ones may get sleepy when there are lulls such as at story time or later in the afternoon when some of the session children go home and it is quieter. We prefer not to wake children if they are so tired they have fallen asleep independently (ie not being put down to sleep).

Your child may be staying up later on nursery days to unwind and to spend time with you and her own things. Just as we need to unwind after work.

I think you actually need to work on your sleep routine at home. Does she have tv in the evenings before bed? Is there a bath cuddle story routine.
Would an audiobook / mindfulness story help?

Everyone saying YABU, what do you all suggest OP does then?

Surely you don't think it's reasonable for a toddler to be up at 11pm 4 nights a week?

And all those saying "if you want personalised care, get a nanny", that's quite contradictory. Either it's "cruel" for childcare providers to keep a child awake, so cruel for a nanny to too, or it's because of the convenience of the nursery staff and not because it's best for the child.

I should also add that one preschool child falling asleep will make no difference to the staff who have 20 or so children to care for. They aren’t suddenly going to have a coffee break or anything because one is asleep. Might make a difference in younger age rooms where more children fall asleep around the same time but your nursery won’t be letting her sleep because it helps the staffing at preschool age.

If they wake your child she will be tired, grumpy and get absolutely nothing from the afternoon.
If her dropping off is a huge deal can you afford a nanny? They will be able to follow your rules as they are only caring for your child.
Unfortunately at nursery they can't just do something else with her as they need to keep in ratio and it'll cause problems as the other children will want to know why your child is doing something different.
Can you take her out to the playground or for a walk after nursery, especially now it's getting lighter to try and tire her out? I do understand it's probably the last thing you feel like doing after a full day but might help.

Sounds like she’s caught in a bit of a vicious cycle. When she doesn’t nap what time do you put her to bed? I’d echo other posters re trying to break the cycle and start an earlier bedtime.

I do thing the nursery should be trying harder but if she is not sleeping til 10pm then it’s going to be impossible to keep her awake so I can see it from both sides.

I’d be going for v early bedtime regardless of nap status and at 3 it should be in bed and lights out.

And ignore the posters that keep talking about a nanny. Does anyone actually have a clue how much they cost!! Wasn’t even feasible on a 6 figure salary, come on people OP sounds like she’s doing a great job with her daughter.

Morning all! DD woke up just after 7am as predicted, crying and grumpy, presumably because she's knackered after only 8.5 hours sleep.

Regarding taking time off to re-set her naps, she had actually been off for a week a couple of weeks ago, with no naps and bedtimes going fine, all 11/12 hour nights. First day back at nursery, had a nap and then she was up till 10.30pm. And then the next day she had a nap, and so on...

She just had Fri, Sat, Sun off nursery with no naps, and then napped yesterday at nursery. Though to be fair it was a busy weekend and she did have a couple of later nights so that could explain yesterday.

I really don't think the nursery staff are being lazy, I'm sure they are doing what they think is in DD's best interest. I just don't agree it is!

They have never said anything to me about it being policy, or an OFSTED thing. In her old room, after some persuading from me, they took her out at nap time to do another activity. So I don't think it's a set policy as such.

Though to be fair it was a busy weekend and she did have a couple of later nights so that could explain yesterday.

That could be a part of the issue. If you want to enforce a sleep routine then you need to enforce it rather than picking and choosing when it suits.

If she is having busy weekends with later nights and then into nursery it’s not surprising she will be tired

To answer some other questions, I definitely can't afford a nanny! And I'm a single parent, I have to work, I am trying to change things so DD doesn't have to go to nursery so much (hence the planned move) but for now she has to go. I do everything I can to keep her days as short as possible.

I could possibly change to a childminder, would they be more likely to be able to distraction her from napping? That would mean two changes of settings for DD though (because of the planned move) and I'm not sure if it's worth the upset for her.

Her bedtime is 7/7.30. if I know she's napped I stretch it out to 8.30. Maybe I should make it later? But then it feels wrong to be putting her to bed at 9/10pm.

I could take her to the playground after nursery, that's a good idea. I have to admit that I am bloody knackered most of the time (like yesterday, I had no downtime at all) and so it doesn't appeal, but obviously if it helps I will!

Isn’t this slightly different though, your DD is choosing to have a nap when they are doing an activity, whereas they didn’t put your DD down for a nap in the previous room. I bet if your DD had fallen asleep in the other room before they could remove her, they wouldn’t have woken her up.

You are not helping things if you had a busy weekend and then she goes to nursery and has a busy day. She must find nursery tiring if she fell asleep on a Monday (so not down to having a nap the day before)

I understand your point but having worked in a nursery it is difficult when a child is tired. Sometimes they can get upset when they are tired and it’s very difficult when you are trying to look after several other children. Also if she’s that tired after lunch the whole afternoon would be miserable for her surely if she was kept awake?