Who's being a dick here, me or the nursery?

[Mehblehfeh]

DD is three and hasn't napped at home for over a year - her choice!bBut continued napping at nursery.

Bedtimes were getting significantly worse after nursery nap, and so six months ago I asked them to cut her nap. Nursery said it was hard to keep her awake when all the other kids had their naps and she was just really tired and falling asleep. Fair enough, I asked them to limit the nap instead, which sort of helped for a bit, but then they kept forgetting, and gradually it just stopped working anyway, and we went back to no sleeping till 10/11pm.

So, as DD was due to go up to the pre-school room where there was no naptime anyway, a couple of month's ago I said I really wanted the nap to stop as she wasn't sleeping till 10/11pm, and to prepare her for no nap in the new room. This was a battle with nursery who were not keen but eventually agreed. Was brilliant, bedtimes were quick and easy, DD getting a solid 11/12 hours a night.

She's now started in the pre-school room and...has been napping. Apparently they have story time after lunch and she drops off. I have asked them to keep her awake and explained loads of times that this means she's not sleeping till 10/11pm, and so is losing out on three hours sleep a night for the sake of 45 mins in the afternoon. She's then tired the next day, so even more likely to fall asleep, and so it goes on.

Nursery have basically said if she's falling asleep and calling her name doesn't wake her up, they won't do anything else to rouse her or keep her awake, and won't take her out to do something else at story time. I really do understand their reluctance to wake a tired kid, but it's totally detrimental to her wellbeing as it means she is getting much less sleep.

Would I be unreasonable to really push them on this? Or is this usual nursery policy?

@Mehblehfeh

It really really isn't about me or my convenience, as I've explained.

Maybe part of the issue is I have no idea what DD's day is like so don't know what to suggest to help - they have tapestry but never use it (I have asked several times about this and get one update on it, then nothing again for months) and we have not been allowed to pick up from the rooms since covid, so they get dropped off and picked up at the entrance, leaving not much time for updates or talks about the day. So all I really get told is DD had a good day, she ate some lunch, and played in the garden - nothing more in depth than that really. They can't even say if she had a nap or not as they aren't sure, or how long it was.

So hopefully if I can have a quick meeting with them I can get a better idea of what her day looks like and can maybe suggest something helpful? I dunno.

This sounds like pretty rubbish communication, and I wouldn't be at all happy with it. When are you going to move? Unless it's really imminent I would conside moving her - a few months is a long time for a 3 year old. But otherwise/ in the meantime I would definitely have the meeting - ask to have it with the manager and her keyworker.

YANBU. My DD is also 3 not napped for a good 6 months at nursery. She gets tired at tea time and has fallen asleep at the dinner table. Nursery know this and they talk to her through dinner so it doesn’t happen. I would be furious if it kept happening when you asked them not to allow it especially when they don’t nap in the preschool room anyway

Under the new EYFS rules I think there is meant to be much less emphasis on observations and logging everything your child does (although it would appear OP's nursery wasn't great at using Tapestry before these rules came into place)

I'm really hoping to be moved in the next coupe of months, which might mean a stint staying with my family before getting to new place (though am doing my best to avoid this), so already could be one new setting before the new permanent one at new town. So if I move her now it could be three new settings in as many months.

If I had known how long the stupid move was going to take I would have moved her ages ago, was meant to have been done by December.

I'm going to have a chat with her dad when he comes to see her this eve and we can make a plan. I think probably best if just one of us meets with the nursery though does everyone think? Might look a bit combative if we both go on?

To be clear, I am not going to be going to it angry or making demands, I just want to chat about any ways we might might find to address this.

Me being a dick is just pipping it at 55% of the vote. At least I know now

I am surprised they can't tell you if she has napped or not.
I actually agree with the changes in not making lots of written observations. The amount of paperwork got ridiculous and meant the children had far less attention.
But her keyworker should be able to tell you if she had a nap or not.

It's often not her keyworker that picks up or drops off (this morning she didn't pick up for example another staff member did) and the other staff don't always know.

So for example last week the person that dropped her (at end of day) said she did not have a nap - but there was no sleep till 10.30pm that night so I knew she must have had. When I saw her keyworker the next day at pick up (in the morning) she said she had napped in fact.

When I worked in 2-3 years at a nursery, the kids who didn't nap just went into the 3-5 room. Suppose it depends on their set up but we couldnt just ignore a parent's request.

@GrumpyTerrier the child is in the 3-5 room, but is choosing to nap herself, she isn't being put down to nap.

What is she like at her dad's?

@GrumpyTerrier

When I worked in 2-3 years at a nursery, the kids who didn't nap just went into the 3-5 room. Suppose it depends on their set up but we couldnt just ignore a parent's request.

They aren't putting her down for a nap, she is falling asleep in the 3-5 room.

She's fine at her dad's - he has her at his every other weekend, doesn't nap there though can fall asleep in the car during the journey which then affects bedtime. He sees her at mine during the week.

Me and her dad have not just spilt up or anything, were never together, so the bedtime issue is not that. And we all get on really well, we are a nice, if slightly unusual, family unit

I wouldn't mind not using tapestry for things like naps - I agree that that kind of constant updating takes time away from the children - but I would expect the person doing handover to be able to tell me something as basic as if the child had napped. Anecdotally, talking to friends, I do think a lot of nurseries stuck with parents not coming into the nursery after Covid - which I've heard really good arguments for - but didn't realise how much extra communication you need to do if parents never see their child in the nursery environment. I said this (very nicely) to our nursery and they really took it on board and it's been much better since.

The YABU haven't had the child like yours. The YANBU have.

I had that child and she's now 9. Needs a big chunk at night. Any during the day and she's wired till midnight. Been like this since 2.5 years. I would also be asking nursery to help you support your child with avoiding sleep deficit overall.

My 3.5 year old almost never naps at home but does at preschool. Her levels of active play at school are much higher. Concentrating on her "work" consumes energy too, and during the week she is an early riser. I hear you, believe me. But if she is that tired during the week that she falls asleep keeping her up is downright cruel, and with my daughter it would be counterproductive and 6 tantrums a minute. Interrupting sleep and not allowing sleep is a form of torture for a reason.

SVRT19674 does the nursery nap impact on her nightime sleep?

You're not being unreasonable OP, I know you are arguing that this is about your child's welfare but you also need downtime in the evening so this is having a huge impact on you (and probably a knock on effect for your daughter if you're burnt out) and YANBU to be annoyed about that too. It's actually a big issue and not something you shod just have to put up with.

I highly doubt a 3 year old who never naps at home is unable to make it through the day without a sleep at nursery. I think you need to address this firmly with the nursery and they need to explain their routine with you and what they can do to help. If not, move her.

I'm completely on the fence here but totally feel for you OP. My ds is low sleep needs - often at home he'll have no nap or just a short one and he's not even 2. At nursery he sometimes sleeps for 2 hours +. It makes the bedtimes really long and really frustrating...and i'm not trying to do it on my own! We can tag team! Even with that, last week i was so done with it i nearly cried.

I was planning to ask the nursery to cap his nap but now reading this thread i'm not sure if that's going to go down well...

However i've always thought if they are literally falling asleep that they must be tired...it's so hard to know why she's doing that if you don't get any sort of updates!

So, especially based on that, my conclusion is you don't have a very good nursery - mine is pretty good at updating the app and then i also get an update at pick up!

From what the Op has said though she does sometimes want to nap at home (in the car anyway) but she keeps her awake. So she obviously does need the sleep sometimes.

Ds is and always has been a rubbish sleeper but if he needed the sleep he needed the sleep and the rare times he would nap we left him. He stopped napping as standard from about 18 months but when he started school he still has a phase of falling asleep in the book corner at school!

[quote Monopolyiscrap]@OfstedOffred A parents instruction makes no difference. Nurseries still have to follow what is seen as best practice. You can't ignore best practices because a parent tells you to.[/quote]
If "best practice" means a child is losing sleep overall, then it's not best practice, is it? Children are not a one size fits all.

@cheekyasfish

She's three. She's in pre school. She shouldn't be napping.

I totally understand. A ten minute nap for us is disastrous for bed time

Really? A 3 year old shouldn’t nap during the day?

My daughter was still napping at 4 my son stopped his naps at 2. All children are different and some need more sleep than others.

I’m 45 and can happily nap during the day.

Today at work we have had a cranky 3 year old crying for the last 90 minutes before pick up as they are knackered and mum doesn’t want them sleeping. We tried singing, playing, being outside, the usual toys they enjoy and nothing pacified this really tired child. Guarantee they fell asleep in car enroute home.

I'm 100% with you. Mine are much older but when they went to the pre school room they always went outside after lunch for fresh air and playtime, no matter the weather.

Yes some days I got them back like zombies and in bed by 6.30 but is much prefer that aged 3. If the pre school room doesn't routinely has naps they they need to apply that to all kids. Get them to do sports after lunch etc.

OP, how do you get from nursery to home at the end of the day?
I ask because I know when both mine were transitioning from 1 to no nap, there was a grim period of time where I needed to do what I could to stop them falling asleep in the car. If I could get them home and keep them busy etc then we'd get a normal bed time. But even a 10 min nap would power them up for hours!

So, if your got a drive you might find your LO falls asleep if they've not had a lunch time nap.

It does sound like she's not quite ready to drop it, but I would think a 30 min nap in the middle of the day should still see her to bed by 8 or 8.30pm

@MrsArchchancellorRidcully

I'm 100% with you. Mine are much older but when they went to the pre school room they always went outside after lunch for fresh air and playtime, no matter the weather.

Yes some days I got them back like zombies and in bed by 6.30 but is much prefer that aged 3. If the pre school room doesn't routinely has naps they they need to apply that to all kids. Get them to do sports after lunch etc.

Whereas I would have hated that! I was quite happy for my child to be awake till 8.30 or so. I would barely see them otherwise. I was happy for them to keep napping until quite late.