Who's being a dick here, me or the nursery?

[Mehblehfeh]

DD is three and hasn't napped at home for over a year - her choice!bBut continued napping at nursery.

Bedtimes were getting significantly worse after nursery nap, and so six months ago I asked them to cut her nap. Nursery said it was hard to keep her awake when all the other kids had their naps and she was just really tired and falling asleep. Fair enough, I asked them to limit the nap instead, which sort of helped for a bit, but then they kept forgetting, and gradually it just stopped working anyway, and we went back to no sleeping till 10/11pm.

So, as DD was due to go up to the pre-school room where there was no naptime anyway, a couple of month's ago I said I really wanted the nap to stop as she wasn't sleeping till 10/11pm, and to prepare her for no nap in the new room. This was a battle with nursery who were not keen but eventually agreed. Was brilliant, bedtimes were quick and easy, DD getting a solid 11/12 hours a night.

She's now started in the pre-school room and...has been napping. Apparently they have story time after lunch and she drops off. I have asked them to keep her awake and explained loads of times that this means she's not sleeping till 10/11pm, and so is losing out on three hours sleep a night for the sake of 45 mins in the afternoon. She's then tired the next day, so even more likely to fall asleep, and so it goes on.

Nursery have basically said if she's falling asleep and calling her name doesn't wake her up, they won't do anything else to rouse her or keep her awake, and won't take her out to do something else at story time. I really do understand their reluctance to wake a tired kid, but it's totally detrimental to her wellbeing as it means she is getting much less sleep.

Would I be unreasonable to really push them on this? Or is this usual nursery policy?

Nope I am 100% with you. All my kids aren’t great sleepers, if the night time is disrupted due to napping too long at nursery it makes my life hell. We are then all tired the next day and it’s a bad cycle.

I have limited my childrens naps since starting nursery at 9 months old. My nursery have been more than accommodating and wake said children at their limits. They are amazing!

Anyone saying it’s not the nursery’s job is off their rocker imo. Im paying £55 a day for them to look after my child. It’s not free, it’s a service.
If you asked for no ice in a restaurant and they said all our glasses are pre-filled with ice as it makes our life easier people would complain

@mumofbun

I'm completely on the fence here but totally feel for you OP. My ds is low sleep needs - often at home he'll have no nap or just a short one and he's not even 2. At nursery he sometimes sleeps for 2 hours +. It makes the bedtimes really long and really frustrating...and i'm not trying to do it on my own! We can tag team! Even with that, last week i was so done with it i nearly cried.

I was planning to ask the nursery to cap his nap but now reading this thread i'm not sure if that's going to go down well...

However i've always thought if they are literally falling asleep that they must be tired...it's so hard to know why she's doing that if you don't get any sort of updates!

So, especially based on that, my conclusion is you don't have a very good nursery - mine is pretty good at updating the app and then i also get an update at pick up!

Capping a nap at an hour would almost certainly be fine - nursery just won’t make a tired child stay standing up, shake them, force them outside, make them cold and so on to keep them awake.

@mumofbun ask the nursery to cap the sleep to an hour. That what I have done and it works well for us 😊

My 3.5 yo still naps at nursery on her three days there, but only occasionally at home (if in the car at the right time of day / after swimming etc.). She definitely needs the sleep during the nursery day (in fairness, my children have a relatively late bedtime of 8/8.30) but they are quite happy to wake her after 45 minutes at our request. I believe there are other children whose parents have made similar requests re. limiting nap lengths and the (outstanding, very expensive) nursery is happy to accommodate them - after five years of nursery I am surprised to hear that they are not supposed to follow parental wishes in this respect and could be marked down by Ofsted.

I definitely think you should raise this with nursery, OP - it’s not fair on you or your daughter for her to be up crying until 11pm because she’s slept in the day. If she is in a room where most children do not nap they should be able to keep her up as that is the norm for her age group. Perhaps ask for her to be woken after 20 mins if she really can’t help dropping off - would that make a difference in the evening, do you think?

TheOrigRights:

I was quite happy for my child to be awake till 8.30 or so.
I would barely see them otherwise. I was happy for them to keep napping until quite late.
.......
Me too, or later if they were awake and happy. I just don't get the obsession with putting children to bed early. As for napping, mine napped when tired, as did I if I was at home.

They’re not allowed to keep a child of any age awake.

OFSTED asks them to abide by The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child which states that all children have the human right to rest/sleep.

Now at home, we all have a sing and a dance to stretch naps to be convenient at that age, but nursery are not allowed to.

@Waddlegoose

Nope I am 100% with you. All my kids aren’t great sleepers, if the night time is disrupted due to napping too long at nursery it makes my life hell. We are then all tired the next day and it’s a bad cycle.

I have limited my childrens naps since starting nursery at 9 months old. My nursery have been more than accommodating and wake said children at their limits. They are amazing!

Anyone saying it’s not the nursery’s job is off their rocker imo. Im paying £55 a day for them to look after my child. It’s not free, it’s a service.
If you asked for no ice in a restaurant and they said all our glasses are pre-filled with ice as it makes our life easier people would complain

I totally agree with you. And Ofsted marking a nursery down for keeping the children active? Sounds like nonsense.

We had the same problem. I asked nursery not to let her nap, they agreed, slept much better after. No big deal made at all.

I can see it from both sides. On the one hand if a kid is determined they're going to sleep then they WILL whatever you do. However I know how frustrating a danger nap can be and get your point. There's certain things which some children will just always fall asleep to. For my LO it's being in a car. The nursery obviously can't poke your child awake but they could take her outside for a bit of fresh air. It might just be that she's so stuck in the mindframe of dinner then story then sleep from the other room that it's triggering her to sleep and if they just did this for a couple of weeks it'd break the cycle. Whatever happens OP just remember that it isn't forever x

@ParalysisByAnalysis

Well, given she's in nursery more than she's with you, I would let them call it

If she's still awake in the evenings, then do something to tire her out?! Take her out for a walk round the block. Enjoy the time with her given you don't get to see her all day??

Hope that little outburst made you feel good. Vicious cow.

Vicious cow? Wow. That's somewhat nasty.

I just stated a fact. The child IS with nursery 4 days a week for 4 long days. I would let them call it. FACT.

The fact you might not like it doesn't make me a 'vicious' cow. Reported.

@blyn72

TheOrigRights: I was quite happy for my child to be awake till 8.30 or so. I would barely see them otherwise. I was happy for them to keep napping until quite late. ....... Me too, or later if they were awake and happy. I just don't get the obsession with putting children to bed early. As for napping, mine napped when tired, as did I if I was at home.

Mine were at nursery on an academic campus with many staff from all over the world. It is a very British thing to have our kids in bed at 7pm or even earlier.

That said, I think this thread shows just how difficult it is for nursery staff.

*Mine were at nursery on an academic campus with many staff from all over the world. It is a very British thing to have our kids in bed at 7pm or even earlier.

That said, I think this thread shows just how difficult it is for nursery staff.*:

I agree with all of that. I noticed the difference abroad on the continent, children were up with their families, the attitude towards them was quite different to here.

Yes it is difficult for nursery staff, they can't win. I think the idea of preventing a very small child from having, or waking them up, from a nap is dreadful.

I can remember when I was little being put to bed, with great protest, at an early hour - and still being awake when my parents came up just after 11pm.

Thanks @Waddlegoose I spoke with them today at drop off and asked them to try and rouse him after an hour. She said there's a few kids they do that with already so shouldn't be a problem :)

Well, 8.30 pm is a little different to 11 pm is it not? A child can get a reasonable sleep if they go down at 8.30. With an 11pm bedtime I would be exhausted as an adult, never mind as a toddler.

I would expect a nursery looking after 3 year olds to be able to manage some who are napping and most who are not. At 4 many will be going to school, so they need to be ready.

This was us. I completely get what you’re saying about your dd getting 8 hours sleep instead of 11. It seems like giving them a nap is helping but it’s really not and unless you’ve had a child like this you don’t get it as most dc will have the nap then still manage a full night even if slightly later. The sleep deficit gets huge for those dc that still wake at the same time regardless.

I don’t really have any advice except to try to talk with the nursery again and explain you’re concerned about the sleep deficit, not your nightly struggles. Luckily, my dc was only in nursery two full days so we just rode it out but four days needs a firmer word. I also found sitting with my dd and just insisting that she stay in bed and try to sleep sometimes meant she’d drift off through boredom a little earlier.