Who's being a dick here, me or the nursery?

[Mehblehfeh]

DD is three and hasn't napped at home for over a year - her choice!bBut continued napping at nursery.

Bedtimes were getting significantly worse after nursery nap, and so six months ago I asked them to cut her nap. Nursery said it was hard to keep her awake when all the other kids had their naps and she was just really tired and falling asleep. Fair enough, I asked them to limit the nap instead, which sort of helped for a bit, but then they kept forgetting, and gradually it just stopped working anyway, and we went back to no sleeping till 10/11pm.

So, as DD was due to go up to the pre-school room where there was no naptime anyway, a couple of month's ago I said I really wanted the nap to stop as she wasn't sleeping till 10/11pm, and to prepare her for no nap in the new room. This was a battle with nursery who were not keen but eventually agreed. Was brilliant, bedtimes were quick and easy, DD getting a solid 11/12 hours a night.

She's now started in the pre-school room and...has been napping. Apparently they have story time after lunch and she drops off. I have asked them to keep her awake and explained loads of times that this means she's not sleeping till 10/11pm, and so is losing out on three hours sleep a night for the sake of 45 mins in the afternoon. She's then tired the next day, so even more likely to fall asleep, and so it goes on.

Nursery have basically said if she's falling asleep and calling her name doesn't wake her up, they won't do anything else to rouse her or keep her awake, and won't take her out to do something else at story time. I really do understand their reluctance to wake a tired kid, but it's totally detrimental to her wellbeing as it means she is getting much less sleep.

Would I be unreasonable to really push them on this? Or is this usual nursery policy?

Yes so if the parental wish is for the nursery to try and encourage a more stimulating activity after lunch to promote healthy night time sleep that's entirely in accordance with Ofsted 4.3.

If you can't take a block of annual leave op coyld you try and rejig hours to collect at lunchtime before a weekend to get you three nap free nights to break the habit

When I went to school we all had a nap after lunch.

Posted too soon.

If the child is drifting off or asking to sleep there's not much they can do really. Though, in terms of the nursery staff making life easier for themselves you are probably right. Having an overtired preschooler in a room of preschoolers isn't fun or productive for anyone especially said tired child.

I just literally am pissing myself here imagining a 3 year old "drifting off to sleep" despite being offered the sand pit/paint/fun toy.

Who are all these 3 year olds who don't fight a nap even when they are shattered? My 2.5 yr old will refuse to watch tv after lunch because she knows it will make her drowsy and godamn it she does not want a nap!

I work in a nursery and tbh yabu. If a child is tired we can not force them to stay awake. We can attempt to wake them after a short amount of time. Though the nursery should've supported you more to begin with when you wanted her nap to stop.

3 year old "asking to sleep". Pull the other one

Pre-school is the year before reception. It's to prep the child ready for school.
No way should sleep during the "school day" be encouraged or be the norm.

@OfstedOffred

Yes so if the parental wish is for the nursery to try and encourage a more stimulating activity after lunch to promote healthy night time sleep that's entirely in accordance with Ofsted 4.3.

Nap times are extremely important reguarding staff within a childcare setting. Sleeping children are usually placed in the same room to allow staff to easily "chop and change" so they themselves can have a lunch break or catch up on paperwork whilst adhering to ratios. It's not as easy as assigning one member of staff to keep a child awake.

I think you are in the right, in so much as it's really not good for her to miss that three hours of sleep.

It's tricky for the nursery though.

I might think about finding a different place, but that's easier said than done.

@OfstedOffred

I just literally am pissing myself here imagining a 3 year old "drifting off to sleep" despite being offered the sand pit/paint/fun toy.

Who are all these 3 year olds who don't fight a nap even when they are shattered? My 2.5 yr old will refuse to watch tv after lunch because she knows it will make her drowsy and godamn it she does not want a nap!

Mine always fought naps too but - I'm surprised you haven't noticed this from your apparently very very extensive experience of preschools - not all children are the same?

@ForTheLoveOfSleep

The child is in the no nap room.

I’m frustrated with you. It’s hard at this age.

Can you and the nursery compromise? Ask them to wake her after 20 minutes. Allowing her to sleep for 45 minutes is excessive.

It’s weird to reach 3 and nursery still be doing naps, in the ones I’ve worked in the babies nap and the ones over 2.5 don’t.

However if she falls asleep and they can’t rouse her saying her name they can’t physically do anything to wake her. It’s also not fair to exclude her when everyone has story time.

[quote MangyInseam]@ForTheLoveOfSleep

The child is in the no nap room.[/quote]
Sorry, I meant after lunch activities are often quiet activities so as not to wake the younger ones. It's not always possible to take one child away for more stimulating play.

The nursery is not doing naps for the child. The child is simply falling asleep during story time.

I agree. It sounds absolutely cruel to force a child to stay awake when they are desperate for a nap

I agree with this. I have a child with sen and she sleeps about 5 hours overnight. She naps at nursery which I could find annoying if I didn't know that she would do exactly the same at home. You really cannot keep a sleepy child awake and in my opinion you shouldn't try. Well not for a whole afternoon. It's just par for the course with young kids. They snooze off and ideally they should be able to. It's a finite period. It will pass. Let the poor little things sleep for now. In 10 years you'll be pissed off that they sleep all afternoon

I think you need to have a week off and get her sleep into a better pattern yourself.

I think you are expecting to much of the nursery to fix the cycle.

I think you are expecting to much of the nursery to fix the cycle
I agree. It is what it is. Everyone's circumstances are different. My toddler dd with sen would fall asleep at nursery and they would call me to take her home. So had to put my 12 month old in the car at 3pm to go collect her sister and she would be out like a light as well. They'd then both be awake till going on midnight. However, it really doesn't last long in the grand scheme of things. It'll settle down as they grow up. Unless you have a child with severe disability. Then it feels like it's going on forever. Because it actually is. Count your blessings.

I actually think there might be something else going on as well as the naps. We had to stop naps every day as it was interfering with night sleep so I have some sympathy but it hasn’t affected mine to that extent.

So for example, mine will often have a danger nap if she’s in the car around 5/6. Those naps don’t seem to affect bedtime. She had a long nap around 3 in the car today after a busy day out and it pushed her back by around an hour but she was still asleep by 8. My eldest used to be closer to 9 if she had a nap but she was very happy with that as she’s very much an owl. Once both of my children decided not to nap at nursery (one at 2, one at 3) they rarely fell asleep there and were much more likely to fall asleep at home in front of the tv or in the car.

For the OP’s child to be pushing 11pm and being distressed by it, I wonder if it isn’t naps alone but maybe something else contributing to bedtime avoidance/being wired etc? Either way it’s not good for the child but it’s hard to know how to break the cycle as nursery won’t be able to force her to stay awake as she sounds properly knackered if she’s falling asleep during story time.

We have a similar issue with my DD and our nursery has followed our wishes with it. You are her parent and the customer! So you know best on both fronts. They should definitely be making more effort with your request.

I know you've said you don't want to move her, so I would try to be a bit firmer with them in the meeting and see if it makes any difference.

Hi. Childminder here. It really depends on the child and situation. If I'd had a request to remove nap for a 3 year old I wouldn't put them in a darkened room with others. During my break (boy do I need one and so will nursery staff). Child will play on their own with books/stickers. If unable to play without me it's tv for 20 mins. We are outside most of the day and most children do benefit from some kind of down time. My own sons stopped napping at home but still did at nursery however I did take them out for a play in park (even in dark) before home.

As others have said forcing a child to stay awake when they want to sleep is abuse. However that's very different from encouraging them to sleep.

I am an ex Nursery School Teacher .TBH If a child is tired you cannot keep them awake! As time goes by she will adapt ,however a full day in Nursery Is lot for young children ,and they will drop off if needed .We actually had a notice up about this!

Well of course she is going to fall asleep 😴 she was up till 10/11pm, which means lack of sleep at night & catching up in the day.

What happens at the weekends?

I have no idea how the nursery is keeping 3 year olds asleep?? my DC have dropped all naps at 2. With both we went through negotiation with nursery for a few months and had exactly as you describe - late bedtimes if they did nap. But we insisted they were kept awake or limited to 30 mins if they looked completely out of it. And at 3 the rooms were so lovely then most children didn't nap. I'd say the nursery workers want some time off to have a coffee! YADNBU