Who's being a dick here, me or the nursery?

[Mehblehfeh]

DD is three and hasn't napped at home for over a year - her choice!bBut continued napping at nursery.

Bedtimes were getting significantly worse after nursery nap, and so six months ago I asked them to cut her nap. Nursery said it was hard to keep her awake when all the other kids had their naps and she was just really tired and falling asleep. Fair enough, I asked them to limit the nap instead, which sort of helped for a bit, but then they kept forgetting, and gradually it just stopped working anyway, and we went back to no sleeping till 10/11pm.

So, as DD was due to go up to the pre-school room where there was no naptime anyway, a couple of month's ago I said I really wanted the nap to stop as she wasn't sleeping till 10/11pm, and to prepare her for no nap in the new room. This was a battle with nursery who were not keen but eventually agreed. Was brilliant, bedtimes were quick and easy, DD getting a solid 11/12 hours a night.

She's now started in the pre-school room and...has been napping. Apparently they have story time after lunch and she drops off. I have asked them to keep her awake and explained loads of times that this means she's not sleeping till 10/11pm, and so is losing out on three hours sleep a night for the sake of 45 mins in the afternoon. She's then tired the next day, so even more likely to fall asleep, and so it goes on.

Nursery have basically said if she's falling asleep and calling her name doesn't wake her up, they won't do anything else to rouse her or keep her awake, and won't take her out to do something else at story time. I really do understand their reluctance to wake a tired kid, but it's totally detrimental to her wellbeing as it means she is getting much less sleep.

Would I be unreasonable to really push them on this? Or is this usual nursery policy?

My son used to sleep for ages at nursery. He did it so he could spend the evenings with me. I miss having a two year old cuddling me and watching TV on an evening after work. Littlies love spending time with you and can work out the best way to do that

I’m sorry but there is no way your two year old was consciously deciding to nap at nursery so that he could stay up with you

They can't force her to stay awake.

Can you imagine if Ofsted were there, and a child was trying to fall asleep and the staff were forcing them to stay awake? They'd be in loads of trouble.

They're not putting her down for a nap, they're not even allowing her to nap really, they're just not forcing her to stay awake.

Either way it's not a lot of sleep in a 24 hour period for a child that age. I'd work on trying to get her to sleep earlier at home. You might need to work on night time routine.

Ofsted frown very much on waking a tired/sleeping child.
Most nurseries are pragmatic and will respect parents sleep limit requests, but they can be failed in an inspection for doing so.
It is seen as putting the parents needs above those of the child. If a child is tired you should let them sleep, it's thier human right.
So your nursery tries a little to keep her awake, by calling her name , but won't fo much more than that

I'm not sure if I agree with ofsted or not, just telling you how the nursery is expected to act.

@Mehblehfeh

The thing is, DD never just falls asleep at home. She doesn't fall asleep if I try and put her down for a nap! I bloody tired and tired to keep it when she turned two but she wasn't having it. So she's not the kind of child that just falls asleep in the day.

So what do you think, then? That they're actively encouraging her to sleep and then lying about it? Because I'd move her if the trust has broken down to that extent.

I'm not talking about you here, OP - you've been respectful - but I find the way that some of these posts talk about workers at nurseries that they appear to have used so shocking. I can't imagine sending my child to the care of people that I hold in contempt.

I don’t think you are a dick. Your dd sleeping in the afternoon doesn’t work for her. That’s it.

The problem is what works for her doesn’t work for the nursery. She is also probably used to sleep so her body just automatically goes into sleep mode there - because that’s what she is used to.

I’d ask them if all the children are sleeping and if they can keep your dd with the children who stay awake. She might be more likely to keep awake ‘during quiet time’ if she is with children who are bouncing iyswim

@ParalysisByAnalysis

I don’t really understand the reluctance to put the nursery out, not their job to make nights easier etc.

We pay through the nose for the nursery.

Nurseries barely cover their costs.

If you want personalised childcare, you need a nanny.

DD still awake and now upset as she can't sleep

I feel your pain. Iv had two that dropped off all the time even in reception then problems going to sleep. Ended up doing walk before bed then audio book and one of those ceiling lights so they were in bed relaxing even of not asleep.

I call bullshit that a 3 year old who doesnt nap at home is literally falling asleep on the floor every single day.

More likely it suits them to have some kids sleeping so some staff get a break.

If she isnt falling asleep until 10/11pm at night she doesnt need the nap.

She'll most likely have grown out of this in a couple of weeks. My boys napped all the way up to pre-school, it took them a couple of weeks to get used to pre-school and drop the nap. No, they didn't wake them.

Conversely, third son rarely napped past the age of 18 months.

I don't think you can force the issue. Just ride it out.

I last worked in a nursery 5 years ago so it may have changed but even in our 2-3yr room we followed what parents asked for. So some children slept for as long as they wanted, some had a set time before being woken - usually 30 min, and some weren’t put down for a sleep however tired they were.
In the preschool room none of them had a sleep.

My nursery were great at not letting my DC have a nap for exactly the same reason OP. They allowed him into the next room while the others had their sleep.

I'm the mum, and I know my child best.

If she needs a sleep, she needs a sleep. Nursery can’t keep her awake.

She's tired at nursery because she has a late bedtime, which is because she's napped at nursery the previous day. You know this so surely the nursery can join the dots and if not you might just have to spell it out to them. I agree with PP about asking them to do as you ask for a couple of weeks to reset the clock. I can't believe the nursery can't see that them disrupting her bedtime pattern is in turn making her tired the next day, you must be so frustrated!
We had to compromise with ours that she would only have an hour nap, she didn't nap at all at home at the point but she was in a room that napped still and to be fair she was more tired at nursery than she was at home. But we worked together on it to find a way to best fit for us all with the interests of DD in mind, that's another angle to press I think. If they do a you suggest and your DC is still knackered enough to nap even with a normal bedtime then that's different but they need to work with you to break the chicken and egg situation you're in at the moment. Late bedtimes were borderline debilitating for us so I don't think you're being unreasonable at expecting them to enable you to get it sorted. Good luck!

Nurseries do not read to children after lunch so they fall asleep.
Workers are taught that children need busy active times and some quieter times. So after lunch in most nurseries is a quitter time. The best nurseries read to the kids, the ones who want staff to tidy up, but a film on. That has been the rhythm of nurseries for decades as it is seen as best practice. Not staff being lazy.
And some of the comments on here just remind me why I was glad to leave. The kids are brilliant, some of the parents are not and treat you like crap.

Most nurseries are pragmatic and will respect parents sleep limit requests, but they can be failed in an inspection for doing so. It is seen as putting the parents needs above those of the child.

but surely this wouldnt apply where the nursery has had written communication from parent saying child is losing 3 hours sleep at night for a short nap after lunch.

It's not difficult at all to keep at 3 year old awake, you just avoid soothing things like reading stories or playing gentle music and encourage them outside.

I have this with DS, if he has more than about 20 min nap he's then awake until 9 or 10pm. His childminder clearly found cutting naps short difficult, but has actually been very good at keeping him awake entirely. Have you put your concerns in writing to the nursery, I found occasionally that can help improve their focus?

Had exactly the same with my DD many many years ago. They used to put them all on mats in a dimly lit quiet room, DD included, their response was “ we give her a book to look at and she still drops off” . Well no shit Sherlock! I had already fought and won the “ please keep her expensive , properly fitted shoes on and don’t change her into your manky old slippers “ battle, and the “ she has had her breakfast, cleaned her teeth and doesn’t need a cup of sugar laden hot chocolate the minute she gets to you” skirmish. It was a crap nursery, but I was desperate and it had a very good outside play area!

I see your point with the vicious cycle - of course if she’s going to bed at 11pm she’ll need a nap in the day. I agree with PPs that you probably can’t expect them to keep your DD awake, but I reckon you need a week with her at home to try and reset things. Then send her back in fully refreshed and hopefully not in need of a nap.

I'm really surprised by this thread. At my DS's nursery naps were decided by the parents. There was a list of names up next to the sleeping room with how long each child was allowed to nap for. My DS never had problems at night so could have until he woke up naturally but others would be woken up after their time or kept awake entirely.

Oh I get your frustration except my DD is the other way around! Nursery stopped her napping from 11 or 12 months as they basically had too many smaller babies in her room to be able to give her any time to settle, so unless she magically put herself to sleep in a busy room then she didn't nap. She was so overtired by the time I picked her up each day it was a nightmare...we switched nursery in the end as it was just one small sign of how they just wouldn't budge on anything.

I understand they have lots of kids to look after but they still need to care for all of them and find a balance. The new nursery has lots of long standing members of staff, most are mums and grans themselves, they have above bare minimum ratios and generally are absolutely great! DD no longer naps as she's now 2.5 but new nursery do a dance party straight after lunch each day for those who don't nap. For those who do, they go into a different quiet room far enough away from the party. None of the parents complain about naps one way or another as being an ongoing issue.

@FelicityPike

If she needs a sleep, she needs a sleep. Nursery can’t keep her awake.

But when she is at home, she doesn’t need a sleep? And the sleep means she is the awake until 10~11pm. I mean I am in bed at that time (even more so when my dcs were that age!).

That child is getting LESS sleep with that arrangement. Surely that can’t be right?

You are in a self defeating cycle - napping makes her stay up late and not get enough sleep so she is tired the next day and needs a nap.

You need to take her out of nursery for a week and get her on the right schedule of early bedtimes and no nap and then they should be able to continue that as she won't be falling asleep during the day while at nursey.

@OfstedOffred A parents instruction makes no difference. Nurseries still have to follow what is seen as best practice. You can't ignore best practices because a parent tells you to.