Who's being a dick here, me or the nursery?

[Mehblehfeh]

DD is three and hasn't napped at home for over a year - her choice!bBut continued napping at nursery.

Bedtimes were getting significantly worse after nursery nap, and so six months ago I asked them to cut her nap. Nursery said it was hard to keep her awake when all the other kids had their naps and she was just really tired and falling asleep. Fair enough, I asked them to limit the nap instead, which sort of helped for a bit, but then they kept forgetting, and gradually it just stopped working anyway, and we went back to no sleeping till 10/11pm.

So, as DD was due to go up to the pre-school room where there was no naptime anyway, a couple of month's ago I said I really wanted the nap to stop as she wasn't sleeping till 10/11pm, and to prepare her for no nap in the new room. This was a battle with nursery who were not keen but eventually agreed. Was brilliant, bedtimes were quick and easy, DD getting a solid 11/12 hours a night.

She's now started in the pre-school room and...has been napping. Apparently they have story time after lunch and she drops off. I have asked them to keep her awake and explained loads of times that this means she's not sleeping till 10/11pm, and so is losing out on three hours sleep a night for the sake of 45 mins in the afternoon. She's then tired the next day, so even more likely to fall asleep, and so it goes on.

Nursery have basically said if she's falling asleep and calling her name doesn't wake her up, they won't do anything else to rouse her or keep her awake, and won't take her out to do something else at story time. I really do understand their reluctance to wake a tired kid, but it's totally detrimental to her wellbeing as it means she is getting much less sleep.

Would I be unreasonable to really push them on this? Or is this usual nursery policy?

@GettingThemFromHereToThere But the nursery is trying to wake her up by saying her name.
What exactly do you want the nursery to do? Physically shake the child awake? Prod the child awake? Physically haul the child up and make her stand up? What exactly do you think the nursery should do?

@Mehblehfeh

Balls. Looks like consensus is I'm the dick

It just doesn't feel right though 'allowing' something that is negatively affecting her so much. She is wide awake now after having a half hour nap at nursery today, and upset as she wants to be asleep but can't drop off. She will still wake up at 7am tomorrow, she won't sleep late, so instead of 11/12 hours will get 8/9.

She's in nursery 4 days a week, for about 7/8 hours a day. And yes I pay them a shit ton!

Well, given she's in nursery more than she's with you, I would let them call it.

If she's still awake in the evenings, then do something to tire her out?! Take her out for a walk round the block. Enjoy the time with her given you don't get to see her all day??

Urgh I’m with you @Mehblehfeh - they absolutely could keep her awake. Most kids go through a phase of being tired when they drop their nap, and it makes them more tired when they do nap as they don’t get a full night’s sleep. A lot of adults also get tired in the early afternoon, but a bit of fresh air can make it pass quickly. They should be listening to you.

offering quiet time activity is best practice
Yes but it's also widely known that there are dips in energy levels after lunch where many people (including adults!) feel sleepier between 1 &3pm. If you have a parent who has explained their child is losing 3-4 hours of sleep when napping at nursery, the last thing you do is read them a story after lunch. You offer quiet time at a different time of day.

@OfstedOffred you still havent explained exactly how you think the staff should wake the child up?

[quote Monopolyiscrap]@GettingThemFromHereToThere But the nursery is trying to wake her up by saying her name.
What exactly do you want the nursery to do? Physically shake the child awake? Prod the child awake? Physically haul the child up and make her stand up? What exactly do you think the nursery should do?[/quote]
Are you selectively ignoring my comments??

I said they should get the child active after lunch. It's a simple, common sense approach.

It's not about how to wake the child up. It's about how to avoid the nap in the first place. Then, once bedtimes come forwards again, the naps won't be needed.

Well, given she's in nursery more than she's with you, I would let them call it.

Maths not shit hot there hon. 8 hours 4 times a week is 32 hours. She is at home with OP the other 136 hours a week.

Okay get the kids to run around. Then have quiet time later. And if they fall asleep then?

Monopoly

Take her outside. Never yet seen a child just nod off outside. Encourage them to play a game that involves talking and interacting with a peer or adult.

Offer painting, or another fun standing activity. Avoid being seated, listening to stories or quiet music. Remove them from a room where other children are sleeping.

@OfstedOffred lots of kids are in nurseries for 10 hours a day. Most parents have commuting time to and from work.

It's not your call or the nursery's to decide whether the baby takes a nap with the other children. He decides. It's verging on cruelty to try and force him awake.
Anyway it's a fallacy that baby will be more sleepy in the evening if he's not allowed a nap in the day. He's more likely to be cranky and very unsettled.

They tend not nod off later on even if they've appeared sleepy just after lunch. It is widely known humans often have a dip ik energy levels after lunch. Circadian rhythms are a funny old thing.

CoastalWave that feels a bit judgey. I am a single parent, working full time, doing my best. I live in not a very nice area in the middle of a city, and don't particularly fancy wandering around with a three year old in the dark.

It's not about how to wake the child up. It's about how to avoid the nap in the first place. Then, once bedtimes come forwards again, the naps won't be needed.

OP said she drops off, not that they put her down for a nap. There may not be enough staff to cover breaks and have one or two outside with the children who want to be awake and another couple inside with the Nappers.

If you want personal care for your child then get a nanny.

@OfstedOffred that works if it is simply the quiet time after lunch making them sleepy. But if a child is actually tired they will still fall asleep as soon as you do have quiet time. And some kids are tired. It is a long and busy day.

I don't think YABU but I also don't think nursery are either.

My little boy only really naps at nursery and he can sleep for 3-4 hours sometimes!

He's so difficult to keep awake when he's tired, he'll just go find somewhere else.

But that will mean he might have 4-5 hours at night and that's a nightmare for both of us.

He's just not ready to drop the nap at nursery and unfortunately nursery is a necessity for us.

Well, given she's in nursery more than she's with you, I would let them call it

If she's still awake in the evenings, then do something to tire her out?! Take her out for a walk round the block. Enjoy the time with her given you don't get to see her all day??

Hope that little outburst made you feel good. Vicious cow.

@OfstedOffred

They tend not nod off later on even if they've appeared sleepy just after lunch. It is widely known humans often have a dip ik energy levels after lunch. Circadian rhythms are a funny old thing.

That is not true. I have known 5-year-olds fall asleep at 3 pm.

it's not about how to wake the child up. It's about how to avoid the nap in the first place. Then, once bedtimes come forwards again, the naps won't be needed.

This. This is a temporary issue. Of course the child is sleepy. They are having terrifically interrupted nights. If I stayed up four hours late tonight, I'd want a nap after lunch. But then I would struggle to nod off until too late again. So instead I know I need to get through the day & have an early night to get back on track. This nursery arent acting in the best interests of the child.

I had this issue with ds1. It's annoying because like you say it's not worth losing 12 hours sleep over a 30 min nap. He didn't nap on the days he was with me.

You can't fight nursery on this. Yes most parents don't let their dc nap but at the end of a long day nursery workers don't really care about the wellbeing of the child and would rather let them fall asleep and pretend it was really hard to keep them awake.

The good news is this is a short term, unimportant issue and all you can do is make a point every single time that they are ruining the nights sleep. Don't expect them to be much use but ask over and over again. Make it clear its not good enough.

Nursery isn't perfect but nothing is. Soon these days will be behind you.

@Monopolyiscrap

Okay get the kids to run around. Then have quiet time later. And if they fall asleep then?

Then you engage them.

This is a short term problem. This child hasn't needed a nap for a long time.

She only needs the nap because she's having late nights because of the cat nap.

If the nursery can't support the mum to get back into a decent cycle, which likely would take less than a week, then mum needs to find a nursery with a better approach.

@Monopolyiscrap what are you suggesting? That it's healthy for the toddler to go to bed at 11pm? That this should continue so she can have a 45min nap?

@GettingThemFromHereToThere there have been good suggestions about how to break this and introduce good sleep hygiene.
But a nursery is not legally allowed to keep an exhausted child awake.

You can't fight nursery on this. Yes most parents don't let their dc nap but at the end of a long day nursery workers don't really care about the wellbeing of the child and would rather let them fall asleep and pretend it was really hard to keep them awake.

Again, I wouldn't send my child to a nursery where I thought this little of the staff. I find it mind-boggling that anyone would.

You can't fight nursery on this. Yes most parents don't let their dc nap but at the end of a long day nursery workers don't really care about the wellbeing of the child and would rather let them fall asleep and pretend it was really hard to keep them awake.

Good lord really? How many nurseries have you worked in? Because I've never worked in one where the staff don't care about the well-being of the children.

We had the opposite problem. My daughter would not nap at nursery and that meant she wouldn’t sleep at night as she was too tired.

If a child is falling asleep in nursery, in a room where other kids aren’t napping, then they are proper tired and need that nap.