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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Tinder Swindler - victims should accept some accountability

343 replies

sometimespeopletakethepiss · 11/02/2022 21:03

I can completely understand how these ladies could have fell for this guy BUT what I don't understand is the lack of accountability for their poor judgement.

In my life I would never, ever lend money to anyone unless it is money I could afford to lose - and if I did I feel like I'd have to own it as my own poor judgement.

AIBU to think the ladies should repay the money themselves or declare bankruptcy, not setup a 'go fund me' page and take it as a lesson learned?

OP posts:
Yeahthat · 14/02/2022 11:15

@Diqgeneration

I find it really interesting that alot of people are calling the women- who did not ask for or receive a penny- moneygrabbing while not criticising a man who swindled millions from multiple victims. And then we wonder how women end up with cocklodgers. Here’s your answer.
@Diqgeneration

At least one of them defrauded a bank by supplying false information in order to obtain a huge loan.

She did that because she was playing the long game; the ultimate goal - the incentive for the behaviour - was to bag what she thought was a mega rich guy. As others have said, if he'd been skint and asked her to lend him money to pay the first month's rent on a flat, she'd never have done it.

They may not have "asked for" money, but there was a financial motivation for the way they behaved.

I don't have much sympathy for anyone involved in this story. Just people using (or trying to use) each other in various ways and some getting hurt.

Chely · 14/02/2022 11:23

Well... I wouldn't lend dh a tenner and he's the one who earns the money 🤣.
Swindlers only succeed because the world is full of gullible people, I struggle to have sympathy for them tbh.

AryaStarkWolf · 14/02/2022 11:36

Well yeah but at the same time I wouldn't like to victim blame, he's a conman and they were fooled by him, he's clearly pretty good at what he does. I'd like to think I wouldn't have been fooled but none of is were in their position either

user1471447863 · 14/02/2022 11:57

He was evidently extremely good at what he did and he had perfected his method over very many marks.
But the women were evidently hoping to hook themselves a rich man - the promise of future big money if they just put in a bit of work now.
What interest could they possibly have in a life on the run from 'baddies' trying to track you down - and I doubt when they found him they would be just looking to give him a stern telling off then all have a cup of tea and forget about it all. Having anything to do with someone like that (if they were real of course) would make you a target too (and possibly an easier one to get to) so why the hell would you want to go put your life in danger with someone you've just met? It had to be the promise of big money and the billionaire lifestyle.

DrSbaitso · 14/02/2022 11:58

It had to be the promise of big money and the billionaire lifestyle.

Because there's nothing remotely appealing in that!

Yeahthat · 14/02/2022 12:12

@DrSbaitso

I really don't understand the point you've spent so long on here trying to make.

Someone pointed out that he was equally a 'mark' for the women who thought they could use him to gain a certain lifestyle.

You agree, but still expect people to have sympathy for them?

They were playing a game and lost. Some people have no sympathy for them.

What are you actually trying to argue?

DottyHarmer · 14/02/2022 12:18

I think it’s hard for most of us, slumped on the sofa with a balding Dh and our paw round a bar of fruit & nut to get inside the heads of these Instagrammy, highly-groomed women who are hunters just as much as old matey the swindler. They were all also that type of “global” person, speaking/texting “international English” which has a dry, humourless tone and none of the nuances of original language. They were all doing Love Island/The Bachelor speak, where you just communicate in sound bites and there’s no warmth or individuality (evidenced by his identical messages to the women!).

I thought the Dutch woman seemed pleasant, but the other two were clearly blinded by the Euro signs. Someone upthread said it seemed as if they felt they deserved a billionaire - as clearly did all the girls in that nightclub they went to!

DrSbaitso · 14/02/2022 12:49

[quote Yeahthat]@DrSbaitso

I really don't understand the point you've spent so long on here trying to make.

Someone pointed out that he was equally a 'mark' for the women who thought they could use him to gain a certain lifestyle.

You agree, but still expect people to have sympathy for them?

They were playing a game and lost. Some people have no sympathy for them.

What are you actually trying to argue?[/quote]
I'm sorry, I had no idea it was so difficult to follow.

That they're not merely stupid or greedy. That this is a complex psychological con and reducing it down to "thick people" is ironic since it demonstrates a huge lack of understanding. That they're not just gold digging whores who deserve it. That it wasn't a cold act of attempted profiteering on their part (the irony!). That a bit of human compassion isn't a bad thing. That there's nothing wrong with them being paid to provide this content we are consuming. That they aren't "swindling" anyone by setting up a GoFundMe that people are free to ignore. And that - probably the bit that's actually sticking in your craw - I don't think anyone deserves any sort of admiration for not feeling any sympathy for them, since this lack of sympathy is largely bound up in disingenuousness, self-congratulation and a hefty dose of bad feeling over the fact they moved in moneyed circles.

I hope that clears it up.

Diqgeneration · 14/02/2022 13:00

I disagree that they were doing it for future wealth- all of them mentioned that they believed his SAFETY was at risk. That he would be hurt or killed if they didn’t pay up. Not money at all.

Yeahthat · 14/02/2022 13:00

@DrSbaitso

Who suggested admiration?

As for "bad feeling because they moved in moneyed circles" - they moved in a fake world and got burnt to the tune of around 1/4 of a million dollars, a sum they evidently couldn't begin to afford. There really is nothing to envy.

I also doubt that anyone is congratulating themselves for having the good sense to realise that a billionaire wouldn't be required to beg someone he barely knows for money or help. Such insight hardly requires superior intelligence!

It's not a "complex psychological con" - it's paper thin, with the requests for money starting in one case after around a month of knowing each other.

mUserBot9to5 · 14/02/2022 13:02

@dottyhammer, i agree, those texts were so humourless

Diqgeneration · 14/02/2022 13:02

The first one certainly liked the fairytale aspect but she mentioned loving him even after she knew the worst.

User135644 · 14/02/2022 13:03

@user1471447863

He was evidently extremely good at what he did and he had perfected his method over very many marks. But the women were evidently hoping to hook themselves a rich man - the promise of future big money if they just put in a bit of work now. What interest could they possibly have in a life on the run from 'baddies' trying to track you down - and I doubt when they found him they would be just looking to give him a stern telling off then all have a cup of tea and forget about it all. Having anything to do with someone like that (if they were real of course) would make you a target too (and possibly an easier one to get to) so why the hell would you want to go put your life in danger with someone you've just met? It had to be the promise of big money and the billionaire lifestyle.
Playing devil's advocate for a minute. If they met a random millionaire/billionaire, love bombed him, married him, then divorced him and took half his money - MN would be cheering them on.

Cons work both ways.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 14/02/2022 13:03

Some of the comments here are really making me wonder if there's two separate programmes...... the women in the one I watched went along with it, as you put it, because they genuinely believed he was at risk and he had love bombed them etc. Yes, to our lowly eyes it must all seem too good to be true etc and we would all know better......but really, would we? If you're not capable of behaving in such a psychopathic manner, because this guy is a classic psychopath, you're going to question yourself at every turn, and of course any gut instinct is "woo" or "projection" or any other amount of gas-lighting / pseudo- therapeutic bollocks.

It's taken me until my 50s to truly be able to "smell rats" because I'm living in hope that most people aren't shits. And I still occasionally get caught out (often by women funnily enough, and not romantically but that's a whole other can of worms).

If you have any sort of Achilles heel, and someone sniffs it out, no matter how hard you resist your subconscious coupled with how you've been raised and socialised can do a real dirty on you. No matter your class, socio-economic status, whatever. And this guy wasn't working alone x That was blatantly obvious.

So it seems that some here think the women were looking for money not love..... I've heard of speculate to accumulate but that's a bit extreme.

This guy was a convicted professional in his "field".

I still can't help but think "there but for the grace of (deity) go I....)

Yeahthat · 14/02/2022 13:04

@Diqgeneration

I disagree that they were doing it for future wealth- all of them mentioned that they believed his SAFETY was at risk. That he would be hurt or killed if they didn’t pay up. Not money at all.
Ah, I didn't realise that they say so. Of course, no one ever lies about their motivations, therefore we must take them at their word.

Son of a billionaire is entirely dependent on the financial help of people he barely knows - a totally plausible scenario.

Diqgeneration · 14/02/2022 13:18

We’ve all been there to a certain extent though- the constantly skint friend, the amount of women on here with cocklodging bf’s, men not paying thousands in child support etc. So, I have some sympathy for them- it was a large scale con with numerous accomplices, private jets etc.

DrSbaitso · 14/02/2022 13:24

[quote Yeahthat]@DrSbaitso

Who suggested admiration?

As for "bad feeling because they moved in moneyed circles" - they moved in a fake world and got burnt to the tune of around 1/4 of a million dollars, a sum they evidently couldn't begin to afford. There really is nothing to envy.

I also doubt that anyone is congratulating themselves for having the good sense to realise that a billionaire wouldn't be required to beg someone he barely knows for money or help. Such insight hardly requires superior intelligence!

It's not a "complex psychological con" - it's paper thin, with the requests for money starting in one case after around a month of knowing each other.[/quote]
I think you haven't read all the posts. Plenty along the lines of "I'm too clever to fall for that". Someone mentioned that romance scammers wouldn't try it with "women who like to read and backpack". Early on, someone tried to engage me in a More Moral Than Thou borefest about it because I do indeed have a degree of sympathy and I can see how the psychology of these things works.

You don't think it's complex, that just shows you don't understand it. Of course it's foolish to be taken in by it, but it's not a case of "only thick people".

We actually see this stuff on here every day. Not usually billionaires and private jets, but really quite unremarkable men who have somehow wrangled a woman into giving him everything, and that frequently includes money, for absolutely no return and they're asking us if they're the arseholes.

If their thought process had been nothing more than profiting on their payment, this would be an investment scam. It's not. It's a romance scam. It plays on gullibility, sure, but gullibility after a development of feeling, a really quite convincing show of apparent wealth, and the creation of a sense of obligation.

It just isn't as simple as some people like to think it is. Have you truly never been in an altered mental state for some reason and afterwards asked yourself what the hell you were thinking?

DrSbaitso · 14/02/2022 13:27

I mean, how much has this woman handed over to this prince in total? And for what?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4477187-My-name-is-not-on-the-mortgage-and-I-pay-him-700-per-month

Is this a million miles off a romance scam? It's not illegal or anything, but I can't be the only one to see some parallels. Either way, a woman's giving a load of money to a twat and being mugged off about what's in it for her.

Diqgeneration · 14/02/2022 13:53

There’s another whose parents want a £700 k house while she rents and she’s asking if she is unreasonable.

Diqgeneration · 14/02/2022 13:54

Wants her to buy them a £700k house

HappyDays40 · 14/02/2022 14:01

The only people that parted with the money are the women. I don't think they should be asking other people to pay it backConfused

Yeahthat · 14/02/2022 14:04

@DrSbaitso

I find it hard to believe, for example, that the first woman had developed genuine feelings and a sense of obligation after one month. The overriding emotion which she described in her account of the initial period after meeting him was awe at the material things he offered her, "The hotel was 5 stars; private jet; I'd never ate this food before." These weren't genuine feelings, they were superficial.

I also thought it was very telling that none of them seemed to have consulted friends or family about the situation to gauge their opinion. The first woman has a sister of approximately her age who's in the police. In my opinion she didn't ask because she "wanted to believe" and probably on some level knew that the bubble would burst if she did.

It's not that I don't have sympathy for victims of scams and I understand that they can involve truly complex psychological manipulation played out sometimes over years. I recently watched Puppet Master on Netflix - which depicts just such a scenario. The romance scams are equally appalling.

A PP has mentioned a case of someone whose parents are attempting to manipulate her with feelings of guilt and obligation into buying them a house. I see that as a case of complex psychological manipulation.

I guess that I just see this particular case as a more simple tale of greed. And in the case of the scammers (because there were at least two others involved, running the scam practically as a business), total amorality. The women had a glimpse of the instagram ideal and didn't want to look under the hood.

DrSbaitso · 14/02/2022 14:05

And it's foolishness itself just to say "Well, of course I'd never give £700k to someone while I'm renting!"

Of course you wouldn't, if it was just placed flat in front of you with no context. Mix it up with family relationships, a sense of obligation, possibly cultural expectations, a big show of how much they do for you and whatnot....You still might not do it, I'd hope not, but surely one sees that a context and psychological web has been spun around the person, and it's just not quite as straightforward as that.

Ironically, given these women are being blasted as greedy gold diggers, these scams/manipulations frequently rely on making the mark feel obliged to prove that they're NOT shallow money grabbers, by forking out.

AryaStarkWolf · 14/02/2022 14:08

Ironically, given these women are being blasted as greedy gold diggers, these scams/manipulations frequently rely on making the mark feel obliged to prove that they're NOT shallow money grabbers, by forking out.

Yes that's a very good observation

DrSbaitso · 14/02/2022 14:19

[quote Yeahthat]@DrSbaitso

I find it hard to believe, for example, that the first woman had developed genuine feelings and a sense of obligation after one month. The overriding emotion which she described in her account of the initial period after meeting him was awe at the material things he offered her, "The hotel was 5 stars; private jet; I'd never ate this food before." These weren't genuine feelings, they were superficial.

I also thought it was very telling that none of them seemed to have consulted friends or family about the situation to gauge their opinion. The first woman has a sister of approximately her age who's in the police. In my opinion she didn't ask because she "wanted to believe" and probably on some level knew that the bubble would burst if she did.

It's not that I don't have sympathy for victims of scams and I understand that they can involve truly complex psychological manipulation played out sometimes over years. I recently watched Puppet Master on Netflix - which depicts just such a scenario. The romance scams are equally appalling.

A PP has mentioned a case of someone whose parents are attempting to manipulate her with feelings of guilt and obligation into buying them a house. I see that as a case of complex psychological manipulation.

I guess that I just see this particular case as a more simple tale of greed. And in the case of the scammers (because there were at least two others involved, running the scam practically as a business), total amorality. The women had a glimpse of the instagram ideal and didn't want to look under the hood.[/quote]
Perhaps you've never experienced very heady, intense romantic feelings early on. Some people never do. But it's not an uncommon experience. Whirlwind romance and all that.

And as I keep saying (and you claim not to understand), money is dazzling. Coupled with saying and supposedly doing the right things, it's a powerful force. But it's not the only one. It's a very important part of this particular scam but it isn't the only thing. It's dazzling, it's overpowering and when combined with other powers, it can feel very much like love. There's a reason all those Mills and Boon heroes are rich as Croesus. OBVIOUSLY it's still Twoo Wuv between him and the heroine, but all those billions certainly aid the process.

If this isn't something you can relate to personally, I'm sure you can understand it on an intellectual level.

It is NOT simple greed. If it were, it would be a mere investment scam, and given how many people do make wise investments, I'm not convinced there's any automatic moral slam dunk on those victims either.

It's a ROMANCE scam. The clue is in the name. The appearance of wealth is a huge part of it, yes, because it's a dazzling act, but you're oversimplifying it very much to reduce it down to nothing more. As people say, it's not exactly much of a promise of luxury if he can't get the money when he needs it, so they're obviously working on some other thought process than "quids in" by the time they're forking out because he's told them his life is in danger or whatever. If they were utterly tight and self serving, they'd be less likely to be taken in!

People are insisting it's nothing but greed because they're failing to understand how the psychology works, failing to see the context of that psychology and, to a large extent, telling themselves they couldn't ever fall for something like this because they're Not Greedy And Shallow. Despite the fact that people in these scams often feel obliged to fork out precisely to prove they're Not Greedy And Shallow.

It just isn't that simple.

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