AIBU to feel overwhelmed by non-binary, cancel culture, and woke society?

[FordSiesta]

I've got to the stage where I feel quite apprehensive about the future. It just feels like there will be no 'men' or 'women' or 'boys' and 'girls' and everyone will need to conform to various gender identities and have to remember all the different ways people identify so as not to accidently offend anyone. I'm supportive of transgender people and understand people changing from male to female or vice versa but now there's all this non-binary stuff it's getting confusing.

All these things going on in this 'woke society' and if you aren't seen as wanting to conform with all this new stuff then the 'cancel culture' comes at you.

I just feel like I would be happy if there wasn't so much pressure placed on people to get pronouns correct if for millions of years we've used he/him and she/her and now we need to say they/them when we were taught in school they/them was plural.

I don't have kids yet but I do wonder if I did what the world would be like for them growing up.

AIBU for wanting to just continue with two genders?

An interview with the aforementioned Pips Bunce of Credit Suisse:

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

It’s so inspiring that he decided to openly embrace his true identity at work IMO, especially in such a corporate environment.

@lifeturnsonadime - it is worrying because I can see the temptation to say well these people are the experts, but is does seem rather counterintuitive to assume that a charity has some searing insight into a complex medical condition.

Sexuality is very simple by comparison. The difficulties with it are acceptance by others who are not gay and lesbian, and do not want to give gay and lesbian people their dignity as human being - I have always felt that homophobia is really about the fear of same sex love. That gay and lesbian people can love each in other in just the same way as anyone else.

Transgenderism seems like magical thinking which is why it is very unnerving to see the medical profession embrace it. There will be some overt homophobes in this specialism I would think. Many of them working with children who are confused. Stonewall should have thought about who they might be empowering when they give this training to GPs.

I think it is dangerous for teenagers to be encouraged to go down the medical route. Surely wait till they are consenting adults of 18 would be a step in the right direction

Hormones and emotions are all over the place. It's awful and it can't be reversed

LexMitior

What disturbs me more, being the parent of a non gender conforming autistic daughter, is the fact that services are referring autistic girls to services like GIDS. I am sure that part of that is to do with waiting lists for general mental health and autism services.

The child feels better because they have assumed a fashionable identity and they can be removed from the books from the mental health services because of 'acceptance without exception'. It's a bit of a winner for overwhelmed mental heath and autism services my cynical voice tells me. Great way to manage waiting lists and pass the problem down the line

No doubt there is also homophobia but this, to me is a great solution for overburdened mental health services;

Time will tell

@lifeturnsonadime - that sounds like a huge challenge for you and your daughter. And yes, it does look rather convenient. History shows a rather nasty litany of treatments for young women who are perceived to be different or deemed to have mental problems at the hands of the medical profession. Much of it is a kind of misogyny, because there are not easy answers.

I wish you both the best.

YABU but I'm sick of anti-trans threads like this.

It's unfortunate that you see concern for women's rights and childrens safety as anti-trans.

Women's single sex spaces are important for our participation in public life, receiving health care and to receive support recovering from trauma caused by males.

We are currently running a live experiment on children. There is an increasing body of evidence about the negative health outcomes from administering puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to children. The experiment has not been running long enough for us to have long term data. Puberty blockers are not a pause button, scientists have no idea if there is a window in which puberty must take place or it doesn't happen at all. Gathering evidence is difficult because nearly all children who are prescribed puberty blockers go on to receive cross sex hormones.

A watchful wait rather than puberty blockers approach results in about 85% of children outgrowing their dysphoria or managing it without surgery or hormones. Who in their right mind would prefer children to become lifelong medical patients if it's possible to avoid it? It has nothing to do with thinking being trans is wrong.

The growth market in trans surgery is with non binary people. Young females can now have gender affirmation surgery which involves removing their breasts and nipples. They may choose to take small doses of testosterone. Young males can have their testicles removed and the scrotum formed into a cavity (a fake vagina which is different to the penile inversion of full SRS) behind the penis or they may choose to have their penis and testicles removed to end up with a smooth profile like a desexed action figure.

The growth market in trans surgery is with non binary people. Young females can now have gender affirmation surgery which involves removing their breasts and nipples. They may choose to take small doses of testosterone. Young males can have their testicles removed and the scrotum formed into a cavity (a fake vagina which is different to the penile inversion of full SRS) behind the penis or they may choose to have their penis and testicles removed to end up with a smooth profile like a desexed action figure.

This is where preferred pronouns lead to.

Monstrous.

[quote LexMitior]@lifeturnsonadime - that sounds like a huge challenge for you and your daughter. And yes, it does look rather convenient. History shows a rather nasty litany of treatments for young women who are perceived to be different or deemed to have mental problems at the hands of the medical profession. Much of it is a kind of misogyny, because there are not easy answers.

I wish you both the best.[/quote]
Thanks Lex,

Luckily, so far, my daughter has been shielded from the social contagion.

She wears and looks and does what she wants.

I just really hope she doesn't get influenced by others to believe that the fact she doesn't conform with how society expects girls to look and behave means that she's not a girl. Girls need to be empowered to know that it is fine to be a girl and to reject make up, crop tops etc etc. Not told that this makes them non-binary or really boys with all of the potential implications of that pointed out by FOJN.

I refuse to pander to this utter crap. My response is to look bewildered and completely ignore.

@nonono1

An interview with the aforementioned Pips Bunce of Credit Suisse:

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

It’s so inspiring that he decided to openly embrace his true identity at work IMO, especially in such a corporate environment.

I’m unsure how admirable it is for a man to use woman face at work a couple of times a week & to be given prizes in a women’s category...

nonono1
‘An interview with the aforementioned Pips Bunce of Credit Suisse’

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

‘It’s so inspiring that he decided to openly embrace his true identity at work IMO, especially in such a corporate environment’.

Gaslighting is what it is.

If I stick on a fake beard I won't get prizes, because I'm a woman so shouldn't win anything.

Look at beautiful and brave Pips fixing womening a few times a week, I need to learn from him and somehow become a man pretending to a women. Real women just aren't as special.

I wonder if Pip does 75% of the household chores while he's at it.

@Pilgit

I get that people find this confusing. But what isn't confusing is the genuine heartache of feeling that you're in the wrong body. The confusion in your own mind and the feeling of isolation caused by not feeling at home in your own skin. Approaching those in this situation with compassion and acceptance is not confusing - it's allowing them to be as they are.

Teenagers have been going through confusing personal journey's for millenia. Whether it was seen and accepted by people or not - the confusing teenage years have always been there. What i see of girls in this society is that they see all this pressure that to be female means one thing - glamour, big boobs etc- love island wannabe (I'm using shorthand here but you get the picture) and not identifying with that image may cause confusion in them. There's lots of perceived pressure to be certain ways and lots of female centric violence highlighted.in the press. I understand the desire to reject that and if they're already feeling confused, finding a tribe that accepts them is all the sweeter.

Accepting that they're confused and accepting what they're saying as how they feel - i.e
.showing compassion and supporting the individual will help them feel accepted and give them the space to discover who they are. This is what i believe we should be doing. This doesn't mean not challenging their views and opinions but that can be done constructively and in a way to make them think analytically about their situation.

From the trans people i know it was a long journey to final acceptance of what and who they are. It was not a lifestyle choice.

And I'm yet to meet a teenager who when told that they're wrong does anything other than.dig their heels in and entrench in their position.

This is why 'watchful waiting' is the best strategy. Not giving them something to rebel against, but not pandering to their delusions either. The 85% who are not dysphoric move on within a year.

@Momicrone

Baby jellyfish, getting referred to a gender clinic is a massive step, that for most of these kids who are experimenting with their identity, won't happen, it's certainly not something I'd encourage

And what of those who obtain prescription medication over the Internet?

@nonono1

An interview with the aforementioned Pips Bunce of Credit Suisse:

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

It’s so inspiring that he decided to openly embrace his true identity at work IMO, especially in such a corporate environment.

Awwww you misgendered pip, thought police be along in a tick

@Momicrone

If a son of mine wanted to wear a dress or a daughter wanted to reject her feminity, as parents what are we supposed to do? Anger and rejection ain't going to get us very far.

If your son wants to wear a dress, your son can wear a dress. People only ever started wearing trousers because skirts were inconvenient for horse riding. Wearing a dress would not make your son your daughter though.

[quote Balaboostah]@babyjellyfish
Except they aren't. The government of Bangladesh (hardly the most woke) recognises them as a third gender.
So it would seem the government of Bangladesh is a bit more enlightened and understanding of gender than you are.[/quote]
Hardly, Bangladesh is institutionally homophobic. Gay men risk life imprisonment. No wonder it seems easier to pretend to be a woman so that you can still have relationships with men.

I'm sorry you find the concept of gender so difficult to understand. You did seem to think it was all just about stereotypes. I'm glad you've now admitted that actually you don't really understand it.

Go on @balaboostah, explain what gender identity is and how it exists without using sex based stereotypes. I've been looking for such an explanation for nearly a decade now, so it would be great if you could, as no gender ideologue ever quite has been able to. It doesn't matter how "complicated" it is, please just spit it out.

And yes of course gender identity ideology, the idea that a nebulous personal "identity" is more important than a person's actual sex, is a belief system. One I and most of the world don't share.

explain what gender identity is and how it exists without using sex based stereotypes

I like to hear and answer to this too.

With all due respect, you should be old enough and intelligent enough to do your own research on what gender is. You can even Google it and there will be plenty of explanations. I don't owe you explanations of a complex and mutlifaceted issue wheb plenty of excellent material is easily available because you're too lazy to do your own research.

You do realise that kind of patronising attitude is what makes people access FWR where people women do discuss these things in depth?

The way I see it is this.

Either gender identity is so deeply personal to the individual that it defies description.

Or it is sufficiently generic to be a meaningful way in which to classify roughly half the population into one group ("men") and roughly the other half of the population into the other group ("women").

If it's the former, gender identity is completely personal to the individual and has nothing to do with being a man or a woman, which are words for, respectively, one half of the population, and the other half.

If it's the latter, you ought to be able to describe at least some of the characteristics of "men" and "women" in order to enable us to have at least a basic understanding of what those two things are. It should not be necessary to research on Google or read up on gender theory, in the same way it is not necessary for me to research on Google or read carpentry manuals in order to find out what a table is.

You can't have it both ways.

My son is a lovely young man who will say he is 'non-binary', because to him this means he does not buy into the old macho stereotypes and he finds females (in general terms) much easier to relate to and identify with.
He also has a fascination with cats, and grows his nails long, so they are like cats' claws, trims his beard so that it is wispy like a cat's whiskers and he dresses in black because his spirit animal is a female black cat.
At the moment, I love his ability to embrace his identities and to express himself both verbally and in terms of his appearance in a way which makes him feel more in touch with all aspects of his 'self'.
However, I would worry if he wanted surgery or chemical surgery to change his sex, or to alter his body or face to make it more cat like. I would worry not because I have issues with transitioning as such, but rather because my son has a serious mental illness and I could not be sure that he would regret his decision once he realised there was little chance of transitioning back. I would not be sure that he could understand that he cannot BECOME that cat, or this or that gender because he already IS all of those things
In my opinion, people have been exploring and expressing their identities in many ways for millennia. The difference is that now we have the means to make permanent physical changes. For some people making those permanent changes may be crucial to live the life they need to live. However, for others, it is identity that is the key, and more specifically, knowing that others accept their identity.

In summary, I feel it is absolutely positive to refer to someone in any way that the person wishes to be referred. I will call my son by his cat name and by whatever gender he wishes. He also accepts that I am human and identify as a woman.

However, whilst I do not wish to belittle or 'cancel' the rights of people to transition or the legitimacy of the trans community, great care needs to be taken that very vulnerable people are protected from making serious permanent changes that they may very well regret.

"explain what gender identity is and how it exists without using sex based stereotypes"*
**
I like to hear and answer to this too.*

Yes please. I would genuinely like to know this as well. The people I know who are transitioning are very much into clothing, hair, their new names and pronouns. But I still don't get it.

I will call my son by his cat name

Yes, that's your choice. I'm sure you can understand why other people might feel uncomfortable with it.