AIBU to think Brits don't care about state involvement in murders in NI?

[Somatronic]

More evidence of state collusion in loyalist murders of Catholics/nationalists in Northern Ireland. This time it's the RUC.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/08/evidence-police-in-belfast-colluded-with-loyalists-in-the-troubles-report-finds

AIBU to think that British people don't care that their army and British police forces were involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland? That there's a strange attitude that only the IRA or republican actions were wrong?

I care, and am trying to learn more about the troubles. But I do agree that there is an attitude of "IRA bad, army good" amongst many in GB. The reality is not nearly as clearcut.

You're right, people don't care. But there was a strong emphasis on painting the IRA as the bad guys in the British media, so it's not surprising really.

I'm not condoning IRA actions in the slightest btw, but both sides of the divide were as bad as each other and it is shocking the degree to which the state colluded with the loyalists.

Yanbu. I care but most people don't bother to look beyond the propaganda. Most British people know next to nothing about Ireland and what England did to it.

I'm English but was a child when the GFA was signed. Yes it's terrible and yes it's especially important that we understand what happened and why Brexit could be so damaging for the peace process.

Most people don't know, it's not that they don't care.

People on all sides did things they shouldn't have. Ultimately the army and police response was to the actions of the paramilitary groups. Sometimes they did bad things, but so did the paramilitary groups. If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

Ok this will sound harsh but sorry I don’t care.
What with worrying about my children, elderly parents and in laws my own health problems, my job and the rising cost of living I don’t have any room to worry about anyone else.
I know I should care but I am up to my emotional limit.

@MorningStarling

People on all sides did things they shouldn't have. Ultimately the army and police response was to the actions of the paramilitary groups. Sometimes they did bad things, but so did the paramilitary groups. If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

The Police and Army should be held to a much higher standard to terrorist groups though surely?

I'm English and unfortunately I think most people don't care about Northern Ireland especially the younger generation it's like out of sight out of mind. The IRA bombed England so of course more English people are going to care more and moan about it. It's definitely unfair though.

I believe that the government, politicians, senior officers and similar within the loyalist movement should be held accountable for their part in the situation.

I don't like the witch hunts of low ranking individuals who were manipulated into following orders.

I don’t think it’s accurate to say British people don’t care. I was deeply shocked when I first heard about eg the British authorities instructing their agents to murder other British agents as part of their cover.

But this isn’t recent news. It’s nowjust another part of history to me. We can’t react emotionally to all of history or we’d still be worked up about the Mau Mau uprising or American war of independence etc etc.

I don't think Brits care less than they do about (many) other state misdeeds in the UK and abroad, nor perhaps less than Irish citizens care about IRA misdeeds, nor any NI citizens care about misdeeds by their own community. Men lauded for torturing and killing civilians and soft targets are contemptible, as are the communities that cheered, supported and facilitated it and who now have collective amnesia about their support.

the IRA were bombing England and London in particular during a lot of the eighties. I can remember the Regents Park Band Stand bomb in particular. Manchester too, Brighton, they nearly killed Margaret Thatcher! So it’s unsurprising really. I am actually from an Irish catholic background but I understand why English people may not feel too disposed towards the IRA. They were a constant threat for about a decade. I can clearly remember the lynching of 2 British soldiers caught by a mob too. I was at school at the time. It was very sickening.

@sashagabadon

the IRA were bombing England and London in particular during a lot of the eighties. I can remember the Regents Park Band Stand bomb in particular. Manchester too, Brighton, they nearly killed Margaret Thatcher! So it’s unsurprising really. I am actually from an Irish catholic background but I understand why English people may not feel too disposed towards the IRA. They were a constant threat for about a decade. I can clearly remember the lynching of 2 British soldiers caught by a mob too. I was at school at the time. It was very sickening.

The OP is talking about the killing of innocent civilians though not IRA?

I care, as do my peers.

But for those of us who weren't alive, or very old, before the Good Friday Agreement was held, it's part of history and doesn't have the same impact as it would if it had happened more recently. We're the 9/11 demographic and our lives and headlines have been dominated by terrorism from the Middle East, not the IRA, and reciprocal actions / atrocities.

However, you'll find that my generation and younger are very concerned with righting past wrongs and injustices. It's just the The Troubles aren't well known outside those who lived through it. To learn about them, you must seek out information and there's a lot of history to understand. Certainly, until recently, I struggled to find concise, balanced explanations of the history and events.

There's loads of info out there now, great podcasts and books and the GFA is in the public view again post Brexit so I'm hopeful this new exposure will prompt greater education.

As a child growing up all I remember from the news was IRA car bombs or bombs killing civilian men, women and children in England.

Whammyyammy
That's just it - most people I'm England have only had access to one side of story / English propaganda for years. For those who lived through it, and may have been directly affected by it, it can be difficult to accommodate a different perspective.

Revisionist views often kick in a generation down the line.

Watched a film called '71' a few week's ago, about a British soldier left behind the wrong side of the fence in NI. Although a work of fiction, it's a good watch and for those that weren't around in thar era, it goes someway in demonstrating the troubles

I suppose there are merits to a justice without fear nor favour approach though perhaps not all the UK soldiers and police and 'ex'--IRA and INLA and protestant paramilitaries might truly welcome that. A truth and reconciliation approach has some merits though again perhaps not everyone would welcome sunlight being shone on their choices, actions and characters and fitness for office? Ultimately, a fudge and obfuscation and collective amnesia might not be the worst approach, depending on whether you prefer reopening the past with all that entails or wait until all the evil people are dead and can be judged by a higher power. I hope all the families of innocents who disappeared might already have the comfort of knowing where their family members are buried and what happened to them but the last time I heard, there are still several who don't have that comfort.

For the avoidance of doubt and in case anyone thinks I am equating the duties on the army and police with terrorists, I personally think it is corrupting for the UK state to have facilitated misdeeds though perhaps post-Brexit chaos will not be the best time to reopen the past.

If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

No. The IRA didn't just appear out of a vacuum. They emerged as a response to systematic and deliberate suppression of Catholic rights in NI. You need to do some reading on this, naked ignorance is not a good look nowadays.

@Susu49

Whammyyammy That's just it - most people I'm England have only had access to one side of story / English propaganda for years. For those who lived through it, and may have been directly affected by it, it can be difficult to accommodate a different perspective.

Revisionist views often kick in a generation down the line.

I agree, like all news, it would be biased for Britain TV, I imagine that TV in NI would have also shown bias.

A very dark time for all on both sides. Also remember those British soldiers probably didn't want to be there.

Let's hope all lost lives are remembered, and more importantly that we learn from it.

The article doesn’t mention British police or the army at all?

Ultimately the army and police response was to the actions of the paramilitary groups. Sometimes they did bad things, but so did the paramilitary groups. If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

You clearly don't get the concept of policing, do you.

It's fascinating to see the number of people who think that the army collusion with the loyalist paramilitaries is OK because of the existence of the IRA.

I mean, we're talking about the state and a terrorist group oppressing a minority population and that's OK because they didn't just like down and take it? Shocking stuff.

Also remember those British soldiers probably didn't want to be there.

How is that relevant, exactly? They were doing a paid job. Do you have the same response regarding women raped and murdered in Vietnam by American soldiers?