AIBU to think Brits don't care about state involvement in murders in NI?

[Somatronic]

More evidence of state collusion in loyalist murders of Catholics/nationalists in Northern Ireland. This time it's the RUC.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/08/evidence-police-in-belfast-colluded-with-loyalists-in-the-troubles-report-finds

AIBU to think that British people don't care that their army and British police forces were involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland? That there's a strange attitude that only the IRA or republican actions were wrong?

@Cheekypeach

I mean have you actually read the article? It solely concerns the Belfast police, nothing to do with British agencies

Northern Ireland was under direct control by Westminster from 1972 until (1998?). I think it's disingenuous to suggest that the Belfast police were operating completely independently and without knowledge or support from the central British/UK authorities.

I'm not speaking of you in particular here, but you must admit, the ignorance and prejudice is shocking. People could at least understand what happened in what is part of the UK, within living memory. The people of NI even speak the same language! It can't possibly be that hard to understand and form a better opinion than "oh how could I be expected to know, all I saw on the news was the IRA being horrible" while your government looks to shut down further ombudsman reports into what happened.

Why aren't they even slightly annoyed by that?

Sure I agree - but "your government" - isn't really mine, I am one of a majority that has consistently voted for something other than "my" government (the Tories). I am very angry about a lot issues, including the appalling actions in relation to recent history - but I am also pretty powerless to rewrite the past or get the current government to care about anything except stuffing their pockets.

The Norman’s invaded England though. And the Norman’s although from Normandy were Danes ( who had a long history of invading England and Ireland, well pre “England” and Ireland. )
As an aside I always think it’s weird people look back at 1066 sort of fondly but it was an invasion and overthrow of an English King ( Harold I think but might be wrong)

BTW I fully agree about the English media painting an extremely one-sided picture of the most recent conflict in NI.
It is one of many reasons I've fallen out of love with the BBC - having spent time in Ireland I realise what a terrible picture I've been painted and how far different it was from reality.

I was utterly ickened listening to the BBC R4 programme about Bloody Sunday a couple of weeks ago.

I do care but my political and historical knowledge is very lacking. And framed by the rhetoric of IRA = Catholics therefore Catholics Bad, Protestants Good narrative that I gleaned from the press growing up.

I have done more reading since seeing Belfast. I hadn’t even really absorbed the difference between Unionists and Loyalists. Or that The Troubles of that era began as a Civil Rights movement because of the appalling discrimination against Catholics in employment, housing, education etc.

I do care and am doing my best to educate myself.

@BewareTheBeardedDragon well that’s a bit like Boris Johnson’s recent comments about Kier Starmer/Jimmy Savile

well that’s a bit like Boris Johnson’s recent comments about Kier Starmer/Jimmy Savile

WHAT?

You're actually embarrassing yourself now, please do even the most superficial reading before commenting any further, because your ignorance is quite something

I do care and am doing my best to educate myself.

Thanks, speaking as a NI Catholic, that's appreciated.

@TheKeatingFive

well that’s a bit like Boris Johnson’s recent comments about Kier Starmer/Jimmy Savile

WHAT?

You're actually embarrassing yourself now, please do even the most superficial reading before commenting any further, because your ignorance is quite something

Inferring knowledge where there’s no evidence of any. It can’t be acceptable when it suits you & not when it doesn’t.

Thanks to all those who corrected me (some more politely than others ). I hadn’t realised prior to today that there was a difference between “Britain” and the “United Kingdom” - I thought they were interchangeable. Thank you again - always good to learn something new :)

Unending chain of history though each person is to a greater or lesser extent accountable for the decisions they make.

If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did

You think it all began with the IRA?

Not Catholic families being petrol bombed out of their homes? For example? Or…. Or… well any number of other beginnings.

It's never all one thing is it - this from the Irish Times records British Troops were initially welcomed by nationalists (not in any excusing later atrocities btw)

www.irishtimes.com/culture/day-the-troops-marched-in-to-nationalist-welcome-1.216524

The arrival of British troops was greeted with jubilation by Catholics, who viewed it as a sign that the RUC had been defeated, and the images of smiling nationalists 30 years ago still linger in the memory of many.

Tea, soup and sympathy were dispensed by Catholic women on a regular basis to the soldiers as they manned "peace lines" of barbed wire they had erected to separate the Protestant and Catholic areas. The Irish News said that while the introduction of British troops was "a drastic step . . . If the presence of troops means the withdrawal from Derry of the RUC riot squads and the hundreds of armed Orangemen . . . it may be the first step along the road to peace."

Getting back to the subject - there is a very interesting Netflix documentary about the killing of members of the Miami Showband - it's abundantly clear and shameful that the British government was complicit in that as in many other killings of innocent people. Of course that doesn't excuse any terrorists, but governments shouldn't ever be complicit in this way.

Very little is taught in English schools about the history of Northern Ireland, if anything at all up to key stage 3. Even when I was at school in the 80s and 90s, I only learnt in minimal depth about NI when I did Politics A Level. My only other understanding of what was going on was in relation to media coverage of bombings in England and nothing much at all about the role of the British Army and the police in NI. Then the widespread coverage of the Good Friday Agreement process and the involvement of Bill Clinton, Mo Mowlam and so on. Again all from am English perspective with not much in depth.

I think that a lot of younger people today will just have no idea at all about the history of NI and what is still going on today. They haven't lived through any of it, and haven't been taught about it in schools. That will presumably lead to a lack of curiosity about anything they do see in the media about this.

Clearly education and curriculum change could play a role in changing that situation.

@FortVictoria The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is different to Britain though as UK doesn't have a short-hand name as convenient as British or Brits, many of the Northern Irish protestant community might regard themselves as British. Norther Ireland has a legal and political identity until any vote for unification changes things.

@CorrBlimeyGG

I care, and am trying to learn more about the troubles. But I do agree that there is an attitude of "IRA bad, army good" amongst many in GB. The reality is not nearly as clearcut.

I agree with you.

Inferring knowledge where there’s no evidence of any. It can’t be acceptable when it suits you & not when it doesn’t.

Gosh, let me get this straight. You're denying that the British government took a direct role in governing NI at the time?

@TheKeatingFive

Inferring knowledge where there’s no evidence of any. It can’t be acceptable when it suits you & not when it doesn’t.

Gosh, let me get this straight. You're denying that the British government took a direct role in governing NI at the time?

No. I’m saying there’s no evidence (presently) that the British government were aware of the collusion between Belfast police & loyalist paramilitaries. Would I be surprised if evidence was unearthed? No, but at the moment there isn’t any, so you can’t make assertions.

No. I’m saying there’s no evidence (presently) that the British government were aware of the collusion between Belfast police & loyalist paramilitaries

And who did the Belfast police report to?

Are you also going to tell me that the British Government weren't aware of the actions taken by their own army on Bloody Sunday for example?

@TheKeatingFive

No. I’m saying there’s no evidence (presently) that the British government were aware of the collusion between Belfast police & loyalist paramilitaries

And who did the Belfast police report to?

Are you also going to tell me that the British Government weren't aware of the actions taken by their own army on Bloody Sunday for example?

Obviously they reported to British authorities. But they’re not always aware of what their subordinates do, and at the moment, there isn’t any evidence to suggest they were.

And no I’m not going to tell you that, because that would be ridiculous. There’s evidence to prove that.

I'll admit I don't know any specific details of the events, however I would study the main knowledgeable academics and see what conclusions they came to before then considering my perspectives.

Do I think

Sorry - I meant do I think it's awful that people on both sides died? Yes.

Do I care about this now? Do I want it followed up now? No.

@TheKeatingFive

No. I’m saying there’s no evidence (presently) that the British government were aware of the collusion between Belfast police & loyalist paramilitaries

And who did the Belfast police report to?

Are you also going to tell me that the British Government weren't aware of the actions taken by their own army on Bloody Sunday for example?

It's hilarious to think that someone could imagine the subsequent cover up and maligning of the victims was somehow an accident. An accident that went on for decades and where there was consistent resistance to finding out what exactly happened.

@FortVictoria

Thanks to all those who corrected me (some more politely than others ). I hadn’t realised prior to today that there was a difference between “Britain” and the “United Kingdom” - I thought they were interchangeable. Thank you again - always good to learn something new :)

Don't beat yourself up about it. I'd say you are in the majority on that score. As for the OP , I'm afraid most people just want it all to go away. Up in Belfast two years ago I remember a cabbie saying the Peace Agreement ' is our only hope'. Michael Gove thinks it is treason and has said so on the record. One can only hope saner counsels prevail.