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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Brits don't care about state involvement in murders in NI?

376 replies

Somatronic · 08/02/2022 14:36

More evidence of state collusion in loyalist murders of Catholics/nationalists in Northern Ireland. This time it's the RUC.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/08/evidence-police-in-belfast-colluded-with-loyalists-in-the-troubles-report-finds

AIBU to think that British people don't care that their army and British police forces were involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland? That there's a strange attitude that only the IRA or republican actions were wrong?

OP posts:
Louisianagumbo · 18/02/2022 01:37

[quote wightwine]@Louisianagumbo the 'loyalist' paramilitary groups were formed to maintain the protestant ascendency over the Catholic population in the same way that the ku klux klan was formed to terrorise black people in the southern United States. The KKK was formed by Scots Irish people who moved from Northern Ireland to the United States giving them more scope for brutalising Catholic, Black and Jewish people. The burning of the cross as a rallying point and instrument of intimidation has a direct line of history from Scotland, Northern Ireland to Louisiana! You knew that didn't you?[/quote]
It might be your take that that's why the loyalist or unionist paramilitary groups formed but they did not form until the IRA started to gear up its actions to support the peaceful Catholic civil rights campaign. If the IRA had refrained ftom violence, it might well be the UVF, UDA etc might not have formed. Or they might have become a lone terror force. We'll never know. Their stated aim was to stop a united Ireland. They killed many, if not mostly, innocent Catholics, just like the IRA killed many/mostly innocent Protestants. I don't see how either side can be defended in their actions.

I have no idea why you're bringing in the KKK which was set up 100 years before the UVF and UDA nor why you're suddenly having a go at the Scots for being responsible for it. I don't even know if it's true. I know its first president was from Tennessee and the majority of its first members were vets from the confederate army. I suppose they might have been Scottish. I'll take your word for it. I'm not sure what you want me to say really. It was 150 years ago. I wasn't alive then, I'm not Scottish, I'm not Irish and I don't come from Louisiana, although I love a bit of gumbo.
Of course you could be referring to its second iteration in the 1920s which was started by a guy from Alabama?
I've heard about Scottish clans burning crosses to gather clan members together in preparation for war. I'm not sure the guy from Alabama knew about that though as he seemed to base his practices on the film Birth of a Nation. Honestly, I'm not really up on KKK history.

Mocara · 18/02/2022 02:09

@Daftasabroom

I should have said how many people in the UK believe the Irish famine was caused by potato blight rather than British discrimination?
It wasnt a famine , the word famine implies a natural event. An Ghort mor , the great hunger was caused by yes a potatoe blight but the starvation was caused by the exportation of crops by british landowners most absentee to the uk. It was encouraged beause it made clearing the people from the land easier.
Mocara · 18/02/2022 02:12

@TheKeatingFive

A United Ireland is on the way. Might be slow but it's inevitable.

Hmm, I think the citizens of ROI might have something to say about that

Yes we di , were waiting with open arms
DublinFemale · 18/02/2022 09:19

@Mocara,

Speak for yourself I sure as hell don't want the DUP level of vitriol infiltrating my country.

The country my NI parent fled to to for my safety after a visit from the friendly loyalists warning to get the hell out or the house would be burned down.

I am considered even now by certain people, a taig mongrel. A mix of NI & Irish.

So no I certainly will not be voting to bring that mindset and vitriol to the streets of Ireland.

I guess my no vote will cancel your yes vote out.

DublinFemale · 18/02/2022 09:35

I am constantly amazed at the level if cognitive dissonance by people who think the British army (with full support of the government don't kid yourselves they went rogue) teaming up with parliamentarians to bomb another country, is acceptable. At the same time they would be horrified if the British army teamed up with Isis to bomb another country.

www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/1974-dublin-monaghan-bombings

www.historyireland.com/the-1972-3-dublin-bombings/

Yes we had the pathetic attempt of Haughy and co trying to smuggle arms which was a unmitigated failure during Irish collision attempt. Plus the people involved were put on trial.

Xenia · 18/02/2022 11:30

There are very strong views on both sides on this and vast numbers of people in England, Wales and Scotland for whom none of this is interesting (whether that be right or wrong of them).

Nothing was done by me nor most of us. My ancestors where not the oppressors. My ancestors at various relevant times were down coal mines in NE England or were starving in Ireland - some left due to the famine in those days or just busy with very hard lives on Orkney. So whilst I have an interest in Ireland as most of my ancestors are from Ireland and Scotland (and some Catholics from NI by the way) and some from England, it is not an issue that causes the same raw emotion as someone who is in England as would be the case for many people in all parts of Ireland.

I am not even instinctively pro NI as we are Catholics in England (from the Irish side) . However I do support the right of the people of NI to decide if they want to leave the UK at any point but only then if the people of Ireland want them to join.

I do feel the strength of feeling on these kinds of threads however and as soon as you get anyone putting any pro NI view or anything that might even slightly be a contrary view from that from Ireland and people get jumped on immediately. It really does illustrate how deep these issues run.

The UK and Ireland have of late lived fairly peacefully side by side and I hope that can continue whatever the mistakes of the past.

Burgoo · 18/02/2022 11:34

Hi All,

First post, please be gentle!

No I don't think you are being unreasonable. I suspect most British people couldn't care less who gets killed by our armed forces, as long as they don't have to witness it. Its the same with any intervention we engage in. If you aren't connected then it seems abstract and not quite "real". Its why we don't get overwhelmed by the horrific things we did in Iraq etc.

Personally I am ambivalent. I've no strong feelings either way.

DublinFemale · 18/02/2022 11:40

@Burgoo

It is that very ambivalence which allows Westminster to wash its hands of the atrocities the British armed forces did in their name.

CailleachGranda · 18/02/2022 12:29

@Xenia

There are very strong views on both sides on this and vast numbers of people in England, Wales and Scotland for whom none of this is interesting (whether that be right or wrong of them).

Nothing was done by me nor most of us. My ancestors where not the oppressors. My ancestors at various relevant times were down coal mines in NE England or were starving in Ireland - some left due to the famine in those days or just busy with very hard lives on Orkney. So whilst I have an interest in Ireland as most of my ancestors are from Ireland and Scotland (and some Catholics from NI by the way) and some from England, it is not an issue that causes the same raw emotion as someone who is in England as would be the case for many people in all parts of Ireland.

I am not even instinctively pro NI as we are Catholics in England (from the Irish side) . However I do support the right of the people of NI to decide if they want to leave the UK at any point but only then if the people of Ireland want them to join.

I do feel the strength of feeling on these kinds of threads however and as soon as you get anyone putting any pro NI view or anything that might even slightly be a contrary view from that from Ireland and people get jumped on immediately. It really does illustrate how deep these issues run.

The UK and Ireland have of late lived fairly peacefully side by side and I hope that can continue whatever the mistakes of the past.

What?
Xenia · 18/02/2022 12:38

What does what mean in eg response to this part of my post - "The UK and Ireland have of late lived fairly peacefully side by side and I hope that can continue whatever the mistakes of the past."

I don't see how anyone on the planet could disagree with that. Do people in Ireland want to talk to people in England or in NE about these issues and listen to what we say or not? We only build bridges and understanding with people by talking and listening to what is said.

Phyllis321 · 18/02/2022 12:56

I think a lot of people, particularly after the last few years, are increasingly inured to the idea that the powers that be and their facilitators are frequently corrupt.
I also feel that nearly every nation's rulling class has done thoroughly reprehensible things and in this age of global media saturation, we know abouta lot of it. So it's not that people don't care, it's that they're not in the least surprised.

wightwine · 18/02/2022 15:32

@Louisianagumbo the point of my message is that the 'loyalists' are practised at brutalising others over a long period of time. It is in their dna. the setting up of the uvf, udf whoever is no surprise. don't blame the oppressed catholics for taking action to protect themselves from the protestant police, the british army etc. the protestants were expressly shipped in to oppress and displace the catholics.

Brefugee · 18/02/2022 15:41

It's a difficult one. Outside of NI itself there were very few people who had anything approaching first hand experience of what was going on.

Of course, many people were affected by, say the pub bombings and so on, but in a country of 60 million people, for most people it was something on the news and then it wasn't.

Many people didn't understand much of the GFA and despite Brexit showing us what some of them were most people still don't.

Should the government agencies be held to higher standards? Of course. But governments, all of them, are involved in dirty campaigns at some point. There are many who had absolute connipations when convicted terrorists had their sentences commuted (or whatever happened, i can't quite remember) and were let out of prison. Many of those same people are outraged when the soldiers involved in, say, Bloody Sunday are subject to justice (or not, depending on where your point of view is)

But none of us should for one second imagine that ol' cliché of "we can sleep safely in our beds because there are people prepared to do these things" doesn't still apply.

Alliswells · 18/02/2022 18:00

@NannyKrampus

I spent quite a bit of time in NI. Taking the communal taxis up and down Falls Road to stay with former MIL every bloody day. And no, I wasn't talking about one or two people but quite wide ex Belfast community who are Catholic. I really do not care if people want to dismiss me and call me naive or easily directed. I have witnessed and seen far more than I wish to remember and it formed my standpoint.
You don't understand what you are talking about . You really don't.

Let me tell you that the Belfast community is bloody amazing. On both sides of the community! This wee part of the world has been ravaged and savaged and we are still living the effects of that every day here. Despite that there is a real warm homely have the craic community on both sides.

Did you come away with any positives when you were taking these taxis ?

Alliswells · 18/02/2022 18:13

@Burgoo

Hi All,

First post, please be gentle!

No I don't think you are being unreasonable. I suspect most British people couldn't care less who gets killed by our armed forces, as long as they don't have to witness it. Its the same with any intervention we engage in. If you aren't connected then it seems abstract and not quite "real". Its why we don't get overwhelmed by the horrific things we did in Iraq etc.

Personally I am ambivalent. I've no strong feelings either way.

But this was the British army and the police being in cahoots with parliamilitaries? For a prolonged period. So basically the British took over Ireland, then gave some of it back but kept 6 counties. Then they had to come in to protect Catholics who were being severely oppressed in every sense. And then they took up with loyalist parliamilitaries and murdered Catholic civilians. And we are still reeling from that shit show and you are ambivalent?

Do you think it's ok for Catholic school girls to be spat on by the army for no reason?
Do you think that it's ok that Catholic men and teenage boys were rounded up in the middle of the night and took to internment camps?
Are you actually ambivalent to think of the British army dragging young men out of their beds in the middle of the night, and severely beating them before throwing them into those camps where they stayed for years without ever being charged for a crime?. Those camps were horrific. Lack of food, lack of sanitation, physical abuse daily, tortured, held in cages and barbed wire every where.

Are you ambivalent if you think of Nazi camps?

OchonAgusOchonOh · 18/02/2022 18:32

@MorningStarling

People on all sides did things they shouldn't have. Ultimately the army and police response was to the actions of the paramilitary groups. Sometimes they did bad things, but so did the paramilitary groups. If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

You are utterly clueless about what went on in NI.

The Troubles basically started in 1968 when the RUC violently batoned a peaceful civl rights march off the streets. The nationalist community had been peacefully protesting against state discrimination in terms of housing, employment and the gerrymandering of electoral boundaries.

Discrimination against catholics was institutionalised from the origins of the state. Internment without trial for catholics was regularly introduced. The final straw was the police (i.e. agents of the state) attempting to force a protestants march through the Bogside in Derry. That was when the catholics finally erupted, after decades of oppression and discrimination. The army were called in, but they were too late to stop protestant mobs burning catholics out of their homes and the RUC from turning heavy machine guns on the catholic population.

So no, it was not in response to terrorist activities. It was simply a continuation of a campaign of oppression against the nationalist community.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 18/02/2022 18:37

@FortVictoria

The people of Northern Ireland (Catholic and Protestant alike) ARE British. So quite odd to say the Brits don’t care. Do you mean that the English don't care?
The nationalist population of NI may or may not be British. Under the GFA, all citizens of NI have the right to identify as Irish, British or both.

So I think stating the brits don't care is pretty accurate.

Abhannmor · 18/02/2022 20:33

A meeting was held at an Orange Order Hall recently, which was addressed by members of the European Research Group - a mostly Tory brexit front - the DUP and Traditional Unionist Voice. Essentially they want Johnson to invoke Article 16 and make Brexit even worse. One participant said what's needed is ' a couple of loud bangs in Dublin' to focus our minds. Like the loud bangs the SAS set off in the 70s in Dublin and Monaghan perhaps , killing 33 people. Collusion is no illusion. Will it happen again? Dunno , I think the British establishment have moved on , so to speak. They don't care about Ulster Unionists anymore than they care about Scots. Or the Red Wall. Strange times.

Pugdogmom · 18/02/2022 23:05

Just as an aside, I have just watched the Miami Showband Massacre on Netflix. Confused
Absolutely horrific and a grim watch. 😢

CailleachGranda · 19/02/2022 00:20

I rewatched them Ballymurphy documentary

The soldiers driving past the girls house on the day of her dads funeral singing Chirpy chirpy cheep cheep

And some posters on here are ok with that. Ffs

DublinFemale · 19/02/2022 05:17

The chirpy cheep cheep was something i have never forgotten from that documentary.

DublinFemale · 19/02/2022 05:30

According to PP this was acceptable, as well the IRA. Miami show band, Ballymurphy, Bloody Sunday, the British army had to commit these atrocities for the greater good.

British army got paid a salary every week to shoot and kill innocent citizens. Westminster paid them to commit these atrocities, worked and colluded with them and now are working very hard to block any attempts of trial.

If the extreme violence and shootings were necessary it would come out at a trial and the defendants acquitted.

They would be be would acquitted regardless, as well feelings of ambiguity.

Mckmck · 19/02/2022 05:34

Nil seans ar bith!!

wishtotravel · 19/02/2022 06:45

@NiceShrubbery
I agree. I am bringing up my children in continental Europe and their history syllabus is linear and starts from the Big Bang, and moves forward, following European and world history. They even specialise in British history taught in English as part of their language course. These 15 year olds know more about British history that the British children back home.

WanderingFruitWonderer · 19/02/2022 06:56

I was born in NI. But grew up in England from the age of two. I feel both Irish and English. We used to go 'home' as my mum always referred to it, every second summer during the troubles.
I can say, having listened to people both sides of the water, that in England there's just huge ignorance about it all. Many English people don't even know the difference between the ROI and NI fully, let alone the history. English people are like Irish people, in their essence - that is, human! People are people. You get nice and not-so-nice people everywhere.
I think where the troubles are concerned, many people see it much more from the perspective of their 'side'. Because that's the way it was spun to them, when in fact, the history of NI is extremely complicated, and nothing black and white about it at all.
Without doubt, horrors were committed by many individuals and groups over the course of the troubles. All very wrong. I agree that the army and police should have been held to a higher standard than terrorists, and some of their actions were utterly appalling. In Britain there's such veneration of the military, and I really struggle with it, as a pacifist. Many British people probably can't bear to face the fact that their own beloved forces were guilty of anything. But, more than that, I think many English people don't take any interest in NI at all, because they're busy with their own lives etc. So they rarely think about it. Of course there'll always be exceptions to this.
I do have to say though that ignorance of past situations isn't exclusive to English people and NI. It's a fairly universal phenomenon. I met a man from Dublin, with republican sympathies, who was so obsessed with the oppression of Catholics that he was totally unaware of the persecution of protestants throughout Europe in the past, including the Huguenots in France. I explained to him that in most of Europe it was much more that way round. He didn't know, and had never heard of the Huguenots, which to me seemed extraordinary. Many people of Huguenot descent ended up in Ireland, so it's not unrelated. So, I think we all have our blank spots, blind spots and biases. I fear it's human nature, a psychological survival mechanism. It doesn't make it OK, but there it is...
Fortunately, I was brought up to respect everyone, and always taught that bigotry of any kind is indefensible. Sadly, some people are taught to hate. I think this is getting better as time goes on, and the human race is improving as a species. We've already come on leaps and bounds since medieval times, but still a long way to go. We'll get there one day hopefully! Seeing all human beings as our brothers and sisters is the way forward...