AIBU to think Brits don't care about state involvement in murders in NI?

[Somatronic]

More evidence of state collusion in loyalist murders of Catholics/nationalists in Northern Ireland. This time it's the RUC.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/08/evidence-police-in-belfast-colluded-with-loyalists-in-the-troubles-report-finds

AIBU to think that British people don't care that their army and British police forces were involved in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland? That there's a strange attitude that only the IRA or republican actions were wrong?

British police didn't bomb civilians and politicians

Obviously they reported to British authorities. But they’re not always aware of what their subordinates do

All done in the British authorities name. They weren't rogue operators who were thrown out of the force for it.

British police didn't bomb civilians

The British army shot them

@Abhannmor - thanks. I was really surprised to find they were different, actually! Never too old to learn, though!

Agree that we are all in trouble if Michael Gove’s leadership and vision are to be relied upon!!

@TheKeatingFive

British police didn't bomb civilians

The British army shot them

It's also strongly suspected that there was British security force/MI5 collusion in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, but for some (surely accidental) reasons, the British government won't release key documents.

@TheKeatingFive

Obviously they reported to British authorities. But they’re not always aware of what their subordinates do

All done in the British authorities name. They weren't rogue operators who were thrown out of the force for it.

If the authorities didn’t know then they wouldn’t have been able to throw anyone out would they?

As for British people not caring… what does ‘caring’ even look like? Reading a few articles? To what end? Do you not think that’s understandably a low priority for those of us with full time jobs and children who can barely afford the bills? I would say that’s quite a self indulgent expectation.

If the authorities didn’t know then they wouldn’t have been able to throw anyone out would they?

So gross incompetence from the authorities, is that what you're arguing? I shouldn't be surprised, it's always the (unconvincing) choice over gross immorality.

I'm sure they'll be forthcoming in showing how these acts were guarded against, how suspicions were logged by those on the ground and investigated by the higher ups. Oh wait, they never are.

I think all murderers of those times should be held to account.

But there was an amnesty for terrorists, many of whom are still alive and known to many.

All or none seems to be what's decided.

Think most Brits don't give a sugar about NI full stop.
Most of them think Ireland is one country and all part of Britain. Not their fault, it just doesn't hit their radar.

I think caring would start by understanding that it's not in the past - it's an issue that is still ongoing and still having current real life repercussions right now.

Keating, it would only be gross incompetence if the evidence was there. It isn’t.

@roarfeckingroarr

British police didn't bomb civilians and politicians

The British army killed unarmed children though

@MorningStarling

People on all sides did things they shouldn't have. Ultimately the army and police response was to the actions of the paramilitary groups. Sometimes they did bad things, but so did the paramilitary groups. If there had been no IRA killing or bombing, no Loyalist counter-activities, then there would have been no need for the police/army to have done what they did.

The people to blame for what happened in Northern Ireland are the terrorists and their supporters.

Wow

That simple, was it?

OP I care and want to know much more.

I watched the programme on Ballymurphy with my mouth open. The Miami Showband.

If these had happened in a suburb of Edinburgh you'd bet the reaction would be different

Keating, it would only be gross incompetence if the evidence was there. It isn’t.

So as part of their job role, your lower level staff are taking part in illegal acts and that's not gross incompetence of you not to realise this? Okaaaaaay.

Except I don't even know why we're down this rabbit hole, because of course they did know. There'll be plenty of evidence that was either burned or under lock and key.

Most Brits dont understand and find it hard to latch onto. Ive heard a few podcasts that help to understand certain elements - most recently bloody sunday - but I still dont have an overview.

Geographically, Northern Ireland is not in Great Britain. Both Ireland and Northern Ireland are in the British Isles. This has absolutely nothing to do with nationality. Apart from a small minority, the people of Northern Ireland are (or have the right to be) British (as are the people of Gibraltar and other places that are in no way "Britain"). Likewise, apart from a small minority they are (or have the right to be since 2005) Irish.

Even if you identify mainly as one nationality doesn't mean you aren't the other, or both.

Most Brits dont understand and find it hard to latch onto. Ive heard a few podcasts that help to understand certain elements - most recently bloody sunday - but I still dont have an overview.

BBC Northern Ireland made some good programmes a few years ago but as far as I'm aware, they were only shown in NI. Dh's uncle appeared in one and we had to go to some effort to find it.

I find it odd, NI is so close and so many of us have Irish ancestry, yet it might as well be thousands of miles away for the interest shown. On a personal level I care, it's basically the reason dh and I eloped because we didn't fancy anyone attempting to right old wrongs at the wedding breakfast. Dh's grandfather was killed by the IRA and at least one of his uncle's is in an Orange lodge. On my side we have some very vocal Republicans. It was bad enough when my mum picked her favourite song (decidedly secretarian in nature, she hadn't thought about the words) and got into a disagreement with mil one Christmas but at least they were sober.

I imagine most people don’t care about any of the horrible things the British Army has done though. A family member of dh's was in Kenya during the Mau Mau uprising, he was so disgusted he left both the army and the country (UK).

@jcyclops

Geographically, Northern Ireland is not in Great Britain. Both Ireland and Northern Ireland are in the British Isles. This has absolutely nothing to do with nationality. Apart from a small minority, the people of Northern Ireland are (or have the right to be) British (as are the people of Gibraltar and other places that are in no way "Britain"). Likewise, apart from a small minority they are (or have the right to be since 2005) Irish.

Even if you identify mainly as one nationality doesn't mean you aren't the other, or both.

Actually the terms of the GFA do mean that people in NI can be British or Irish or both. They do not have to be both. They can chose to be only one. The British government have tried to breach their international obligations and insist it means everyone in NI must be British but backed down when the US government and the Irish government supported the right of people in NI to be Irish only if that was their choice.

I think most people, especially British people, have no clue of the real role the British establishment actually played in the murder of individuals in NI during the troubles. Tantamount to government endorsed murder. The gov and MI5 pretty much signed off.

I’m English, born in the 70s and grew up to IRA bombs on the news and army family friends telling stories of cakes being baked for soldiers with broken glass and rat poison. I also grew up seeing how everyone lives to hate the English- to the point if not wanting to speak outside the house when visiting family in Scotland and Wales.

As I’ve got older I’ve learned more about our nations’ histories and have a few different sympathies, but a lot of English don’t have that and on the basis of Scots/Welsh/ Irish all seem to hate us (generalisation of course) they can’t expect flowing empathy by return.

Oops sorry posted too soon but was only going to an an amelioration at the end.

@SockFluffInTheBath

I’m English, born in the 70s and grew up to IRA bombs on the news and army family friends telling stories of cakes being baked for soldiers with broken glass and rat poison. I also grew up seeing how everyone lives to hate the English- to the point if not wanting to speak outside the house when visiting family in Scotland and Wales.

As I’ve got older I’ve learned more about our nations’ histories and have a few different sympathies, but a lot of English don’t have that and on the basis of Scots/Welsh/ Irish all seem to hate us (generalisation of course) they can’t expect flowing empathy by return.

Never mind empathy, Do you not think that as non criminal civilians they might have expected not to get shot?

SockFluffInTheBath, I think you’re right, to a certain extent if your ancestors, past government, current government etc is always portrayed as the bad guys of history. I think after a while you do switch off and need a break from feeling bad about your country/origins. I do remember the awful violence of that period growing up as a child and to a certain extent it is just a relief that it has largely ended. I know there is still alot of resentment and genuine feeling of injustice which is awful but at least people aren’t dying anymore.

@BobbyeinArkansas

Think most Brits don't give a sugar about NI full stop. Most of them think Ireland is one country and all part of Britain. Not their fault, it just doesn't hit their radar.

I can understand vagueness and ignorance about The Troubles amongst the MN generation (am guilty as charged as previously explained) but surely you would have to have your head deep in the sand (or be truly dim) to have missed 4 years discussion about the Irish Border wrt Brexit???

@CorrBlimeyGG

I care, and am trying to learn more about the troubles. But I do agree that there is an attitude of "IRA bad, army good" amongst many in GB. The reality is not nearly as clearcut.

Part of the problem is when you say "army" people find it hard to separate the lads on the ground following orders with those that make the strategic decisions, the politicians.

We have a completely ingrained fucked up system set up so those that govern and make decisions have their own agendas and no accountability and there is nothing we can do about it.

Someone posted this on twitter the other day. So true.