Is 12am too late to be hanging around outside for 15 year olds ?

[GreekGod]

Over the weekend, four of our DD friends all 15 years old were involved in an awful accident and two of the girls are still in intensive care and they are in a critical condition. This has shook our community to the core and I just can't stop thinking about the parents who we know really well. Basically a car driven by an 18 year old at a great speed who just got his license hit two of the girls and the other two had minor injuries. The accident happened outside a coffee shop that is full of teenagers every Saturday night (13 to 16 year olds). My DD was also going to go out that evening to the same place but cancelled at the last minute as we were invited out to a family birthday meal. The accident happened at 12am on Sunday morning and today at the school there was a general discussion by some of the parents saying that they would never allow their children out that late and that the accident would never happened at an earlier time. They talked about attacks and rapes, joyriding and all sorts. We do allow DD out that late. She is a good kid, achieves excellent grades and is very respectful. She is also mature for her age. But it got me thinking. Are we wrong in allowing a 15 year old out at 12am in a group outside in a town with other 15 year olds? My DD could have quite easily been in intensive care herself and I now feel awfully guilty in giving her this freedom that could harm her ? I am so confused. AIBU in allowing a 15 year old to stay out till after 12am ?

@hopperrock

She wasn't allowed to hang around anywhere and her friends were vetted.

This seems odd to me - how / in what way did you vet the friends? Was she really only allowed to be friends with people who had passed the vetting? How did you enforce that? How will she learn to judge people for herself if you don't trust her to try?

Add in alcohol, motor vehicles, hormones, and viola you have prime ingredients for the swiss cheese effect.
This too - there was no alcohol involved, and the idea that groupings of teenagers shouldn't be allowed because they have hormones and there are roads nearby is a bit odd? They'd never go anywhere then? But again I am saying that from a safe area with a sensible 15 yr old.

Teenagers and young adults make poor decisions, judgement is based on experience which is quite clearly lacking. I remember going to fair as a 15-16 yr, finding a shop that would sell alcohol. People fighting, sex. I was attacked by a group of older teenagers and men. I look back and cringe. The world outside of the family home is harsh, cruel world with plenty of traps and danger. Even Mrs Hr who grew up in a Baltic country told me about her horror on attending parties with her friends where older men appeared, plying them with drugs and alcohol in order to have sex. Or going for drives, speeding, taking risks.

I think these situations need to be managed, we invited her friends into our home, dropped them off and picked them up with deadlines. Talked about risky behaviours, situations. Got to know them.
The idea was for her to navigate the teenage yrs unharmed and set herself up to be a successful young adult with no scars.

I remember one parent sending out a party invites with a box to tick giving permission for the 13 yr olds to consume alcohol. 😂😬

I think some parents are inadvertently careless, exposing children to dangers and situations of which the children are poorly equipped to deal with.

I think some parents are inadvertently careless, exposing children to dangers and situations of which the children are poorly equipped to deal with.

I'm sure they are, but choosing friends and going out with them to a cafe doesn't seem especially dangerous to me. But then again as I say, DD and her friends are sensible and we live in a safe area. No late night cafes here but they would no doubt frequent them if there were. Instead they go for wanders or to the all-night garage for snacks or to the park or down to the beach, in between stints at someone's house. More indoor than out at the moment as it's so cold.

No way! That’s way too late!
When I was a teen I had to be home before it got dark so in winter I was home by 4, in summer I was home by 7, the only exception to this rule was when I was at a friends house.

Jesus Christ, a 15 year old out at midnight is ridiculous. To be honest they shouldn't be out (unless under adult supervision) after about 9pm.

Hmmmm. At that age I had a curfew of 10.30pm on weeknights and no curfew at weekends.

I did get into unpleasant situations and I wish my parents had been more protective.

The issue isn’t your DD, or the girls she’s with. The issue is the behaviour of men, which gets worse and worse as the hour gets later and particularly after pubs close. Here it’s an 18 yr old driver. Another time it’ll be a drunk creep spiking her drink. Or groping her. Etc.

I’d suggest a 10.30 curfew all nights of the week.

I went out this late at 15 and I wasn’t doing anything wholesome , I probably wouldn’t let mine out this late til 16-17.

It’s your DD, so up to you. It’s good you trust her. The accident could have happened at any time.

@hopperrock sorry you’re saying your 15 year old daughter and her friends are out at midnight just wandering around the streets in the dark - and you’ve no issue with this? Madness.

Not a chance I would let DD be out that late.

A similar incident happened near me a couple of years ago-
www.thesun.co.uk/news/5673125/jaynesh-chudasama-admits-killing-teen-boys-hayes-hit-run-crash/amp/

@hopperrock

I think some parents are inadvertently careless, exposing children to dangers and situations of which the children are poorly equipped to deal with.

I'm sure they are, but choosing friends and going out with them to a cafe doesn't seem especially dangerous to me. But then again as I say, DD and her friends are sensible and we live in a safe area. No late night cafes here but they would no doubt frequent them if there were. Instead they go for wanders or to the all-night garage for snacks or to the park or down to the beach, in between stints at someone's house. More indoor than out at the moment as it's so cold.

You can see this happening already, I drop my other girls off at primary school. There's already a group of yr 6's congregating outside before being exuberant and daft. That's what happens when parents release control too early. Luckily ATM mine just continue into the school to begin there day.

I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with just letting any of my children wander to garages or into village or town centres.
Next door neighbor is quite lax, let's her daughter smoke pot, older teenage boys hanging around.
Luckily she's left school got a job and her boyfriend has stopped being a leery twit.

@EmpressSuiko

No way! That’s way too late! When I was a teen I had to be home before it got dark so in winter I was home by 4, in summer I was home by 7, the only exception to this rule was when I was at a friends house.

Even I'm not that strict, home by 4.🤣🤣 Is that 4am.

@Hrpuffnstuff1 my mum was very strict with going out and I tried to challenge it without success! All my friends were allowed out until 8/9pm.
Once I turned 18 I had no restrictions, my parents only asked that I let them know I was safe and if I was staying out etc.

[quote DrivelandNonsense]@hopperrock sorry you’re saying your 15 year old daughter and her friends are out at midnight just wandering around the streets in the dark - and you’ve no issue with this? Madness.[/quote]
Yes - they often spend a Saturday evening together, usually at someone's house in the winter but often out for a trip to the shop or to relocate to someone else's house, or for a walk in the dark. In the summer they spend time at the beach or in the park and stay out late. I don't have a problem with it, no, as long as it's not a school night, she's in a group, I know where she is and she responds to texts from us checking on her. But we do live in a safe area and she's sensible. I wouldn't let her out alone late at night but she's quite risk averse and wouldn't want to be, she asks for lifts instead of walking home alone. I also don't have a problem with kids being "exuberant and daft" on the way in to school, as a PP describes, I don't think that's a sign that parents have relinquished control. And I certainly wouldn't have a curfew for a 15 year old of 4pm in winter and 7pm in summer unless supervised by an adult. That seems crazy to me.

[quote EmpressSuiko]@Hrpuffnstuff1 my mum was very strict with going out and I tried to challenge it without success! All my friends were allowed out until 8/9pm.
Once I turned 18 I had no restrictions, my parents only asked that I let them know I was safe and if I was staying out etc.[/quote]
I was a little more relaxed however, once the eldest began working she could decide for herself what to do.
She had my number on speed dial, I always said to her ring me at anytime and I'll come a lick you up if your in a situation that she felt was uncomfortable.

My parents were hyper religious, my dad was a nightmare, quoting scripture after scripture to subdue my teenage yrs.
A tad too controlling.

@hopperrock there is a happy medium between out in the dark walking the streets after midnight and having to be home at 4! So I don’t see why you’re using that example to justify your own crazy parenting! Re safe area - no rapists / sexual offenders / criminals in your entire area and surrounding area? You’ve vetted the entire population? No visitors allowed to the area or people allowed to drive through? No pubs with drunken men spilling out at midnight to see young girls walking the streets?

@hopeerock @ducksuprise no, he hasn't. He's out with mates all day at the skate park or playing football. There's no gigs around here and they aren't the type to hang around macdonalds in the evening. He's 15, not 18.

Re safe area - no rapists / sexual offenders / criminals in your entire area and surrounding area? You’ve vetted the entire population? No visitors allowed to the area or people allowed to drive through?

I'm sure there are rapists and criminals here, and there are definitely visitors because we have those ourselves. But I don't think they pose a great risk to a group of teenagers walking along the street.

No pubs with drunken men spilling out at midnight to see young girls walking the streets?

We do have pubs and I'm sure people emerge from them drunk and some of those people will be men. I don't think that drunken men seeing DD walking along a street is a risk, and feel that she's safe in a group.

Kids are exposed to risk all the time and they need to be, if they're going to learn to manage risk by themselves. IMO parenting is about assessing the risks against the benefit and then mitigating them. And teaching the DC to do the same. But again, it's all contextual, I am saying this from a safe area with a sensible DD. I would be making different decisions if I lived somewhere more dangerous, or if she was less trustworthy. It's not out of the blue either, she has gradually built up to this from when she was younger, starting to walk to school or to the corner shop by herself etc.

[quote megletthesecond]**@hopeerock* @ducksuprise* no, he hasn't. He's out with mates all day at the skate park or playing football. There's no gigs around here and they aren't the type to hang around macdonalds in the evening. He's 15, not 18.[/quote]
I'm guessing we live in quite different places - a 15 year old who had never been out after 7pm would be very unusual here. Lots of them are out and about in the evening, especially in summer when the weather's nice.

@hopperrock of course no man would ever attempt to attack a girl out wandering the streets in the middle of the night when she has the protection of eh some other young girls.

Kids don’t need to be exposed to the risks of being out on the streets after midnight. That’s ridiculous. If you believe that why not let your 15 year old go to nightclubs, sneak into pubs and get drunk, go back to random people she doesn’t know houses for house parties, watch porn? All also exposures and risks.

My son is nearly 15 and I would not allow him out that late. However I certainly wouldn’t judge other parents that do.

Arguing that a teenager will be an adult in 3 years time is hardly a propesterious argument- surely it is about slowly allowing freedoms so when they turn 18 they can navigate their own lives with a good sense of risk assessment. How are they going to do that if they haven't been out past 7pm before turning 18!

I would say a 16+ is a young adult and many aspects of society support that idea; things like being able to join the army, the age of consent, the age of consent for medical procedures, joining clubs like the council gym or private gyms, being able to engage in paid employment etc. A 15 year old is one year away from the notion of a young adult. If you have a 13 year old it is not comparable IMO as they change hugely ime from 13 to 15. My DS will want to play football after school and in the summer evenings and he does occasionally got to Burger King in the evening although he has been to Five Guys with his cousin for a proper sit down meal at 7ish. They got back at 9 after that. I don't think these thing are particularly shocking or age inappropriate. My DS does play online Fifa with his cousin and friends but he's very sociable and would much rather see friends in person. IME of this age group it is quite immature to be gaming all night still and being happy with that. That was more the 13 year old stage. I really don't think Macdonalds at night time is something an 18 year old would be doing, not around here anyway! I do agree about girls and being exposed to men that are predatorish in nature at home time but I'm not sure that changes for an 18 year old girl as opposed to a 15 year old. My experience at uni, post uni, commuting home from London in my 20's, I had harassment quite regularly. It is something that doesn't suddenly become easy to navigate at 20 and I was always rubbish at dealing with it. Of course I should not have had to but i had friends that would tell these men to F off but i was terrified of doing that, this didn't change until 30s really where i became quite bolshy and assertive. I will always be available to pick my DD up when she gets to the teen years and when she is living with us as will my DH. I make myself available to pick up DS now as it is part of the rite of passage of bringing up a teenager. No wine for me now whilst my kids are tucked up in bed on a Saturday night. My friends with older children said this is what will happen and it has so I absolutely do not agree that a teenager is not old enough to go out if they are not older enough to get home on their own.

@DrivelandNonsense I'm trying to remember more exactly - I think I went to first house parties around 13 or 14, I imagine curfew about 1 am (not school nights) and getting picked up. Not especially rowdy although there was drinking. 14+ I would go by train to the nearest big city with friends to see bands, the venues would let you in but not serve you any alcohol. Parents would come and pick us up after the gig, later we would get the train home.

16 was pretty much where it became free range - yes, I could say "I'll be home before 3am" and that would be okay, but usually we would stay over to not walk in the cold or dark. Always had the "if you need to get out of a situation you can call for any reason" as a backup. For the reference I lived in a pretty small and sleepy town, and my group of friends was quite sensible? Nothing more than 40 minutes walk away, or less on a bike. But we were also able to do day trips to other cities by train... I really enjoyed the level of independence we had.

@Bolets and do you think being out until 1am at house parties drinking at 13 was a good example of parenting?

of course no man would ever attempt to attack a girl out wandering the streets in the middle of the night when she has the protection of eh some other young girls.

She is with a group of boys and girls. I do think it's unlikely a man would attack her as a member of a group of people, some of whom are 6ft+ lads.

If you believe that why not let your 15 year old go to nightclubs, sneak into pubs and get drunk, go back to random people she doesn’t know houses for house parties, watch porn? All also exposures and risks.

You've missed the bit where I said assess the risks and benefits. The benefits of going to a nightclub / pub / getting drunk / going to strangers' houses / watching porn at this age do not outweigh the risks. Whereas imo, the risks of being out in a safe place close to home with her friends are very low, and she is gaining independence, having shared experiences, deepening her friendships, getting out of the house, spending time out in the world instead of watching tv or being online, becoming herself away from us, growing up and having fun.

The downside for us is as a PP says, having to stay sober so that we can pick her up, but for such a short time it's worth it. Especially as my saintly DH volunteers most of the time

Mum of just turned 16 year old and it would be a no for me. Too late. Hanging around for hours surely leads to no good.
As a one off eg a concert fine but just hanging around at a cafe no. I’m on the more lax end none of her friends would be allowed either.

@hopperrock a 24 hour garage is a safe place after midnight for young teens? A dark street is a safe place? Honestly if I was at a late night garage at 1am and a group of teens were hanging out there I would just assume their parents couldn’t care less about them or where they were.

It’s a very different scenario to being at a gig or late movie or late dinner with friends - all of which don’t require young teens to be out after midnight. I don’t see why your daughter needs to be out all night anyway. Can she not socialise with her friends during the day or in the evening? I’d wonder why they are so keen to be down on a deserted beach in the middle of the night.