Not all men..

[Jenna19871]

Spoke to DH about this tonight and he said ‘it’s not all men though is it?’

He’s right. It’s not all men. But I have experienced so much shit that wouldn’t be accepted nowadays (not tragic shit but just not acceptable)

At 19 my drink was drugged with rohypnol in the local night club, thankfully I didn’t drink it as it tasted ‘sour’. It was caught on CCTV. The man was banned for 2 weeks. 2 weeks!!!

I’ve taken the tube and had men put their hands on my butt/legs etc with me trying to move away. I didn’t shout, I should have!

None of these are awful stories but it just goes to show that when people say it’s not all men...but it is most women.

The men on here are making me feel sick.

Why can't they understand that we don't expect them to put themselves at risk from violence, but there are a million other things and scenarios where they could do something. Oh, and why do we have to fucking educate them to spot misogyny? Oh, yeah, because it's so ingrained they actually literally don't see it.

How could anyone question whether someone at work was happy about having their male boss's genitals pressed into their back? How could "but I don't know if they are upset" be a human reaction to that?

Btw, even if by some weird chance she does like it, it's still inappropriate behavior at work and YOU are allowed to not like it and find it makes an intimidating environment.

And then we have the victim blaming - women somehow "dint complain enough". And here we are, complaining, but somehow this is the wring type of complaining. We have to complain in exactly the way the men want us to, and they will be sure to tell us what that is, or they won't help because they are bastards who understand innately that they actually benefit from misogyny

How could anyone question whether someone at work was happy about having their male boss's genitals pressed into their back? How could "but I don't know if they are upset" be a human reaction to that?

It's absolute madness isn't it? Depressing and terrifying.

And this is from the ones who genuinely think they are the 'good guys'.

I have read back over this thread. There appears to be around four people on it who no matter what anyone says, still say that men should speak out, are the problem, should protect us etc. But will not listen to the thoughts or opinions of anyone else.

The reality is the average man in the pub or club is likely there with his partner & friends at the end of the week enjoying himself. He is unlikely to have picked up on your discomfort. In the same way as his partner and her female friend have failed to notice it.

The average man is not condoning anything untoward. He simply does not know it is going on, exactly the same as the vast majority of the pub or club.

If what you are saying is correct, then why aren't all the Women in the clubs seeing you be assaulted and saying to their partners? The reality is that nobody other than you and the perpetrator know it is happening. Please stop blaming MOST men for something they aren't doing and are unaware of.

I have read back over this thread. There appears to be around four people on it who no matter what anyone says, still say that men should speak out, are the problem, should protect us etc. But will not listen to the thoughts or opinions of anyone else.
More like there's four men on this thread that no matter what anyone (the many women on this thread, definitely more than four of them) say, excuse turning a blind eye to the violence and abuse that their sex is largely responsible for. And they refuse to listen to the thoughts, opinions and experiences of women and victims of abuse.

But will not listen to the thoughts or opinions of anyone else

The irony and hypocrisy of this leads me to believe you're on a wind up.

If what you are saying is correct, then why aren't all the Women in the clubs seeing you be assaulted and saying to their partners?

Many of us do see harassment and call it out / help the women being harassed. That harassment is often stuff we see and know is scary, unsettling and really annoying because we've been there. It's also stuff that you would likely deem insignificant and not worth challenging.

Also why are you assuming women all have partners? Or that only men with partners should intervene during an assault on a woman? Or that they should need to be told by a woman that there's an assault? How odd.

The reality is that nobody other than you and the perpetrator know it is happening.

This isn't the reality. The reality is that you don't recognise what is inappropriate so you don't see the men doing inappropriate shit as perpetrators.

The reality is that the harassment we face is often very public and obvious but something we have individually told men for years and years is horrible for us and had men tell us 'it's a compliment', 'he just fancies you', 'don't take everything so seriously' etc so we don't "jump up and down" like you said we should because we are fucking exhausted by it.

Whereas if men, like you, were actually open and willing to hear our distress when we explain to you what we go through, your eyes would be opened to the ongoing harassment and micro aggressions that all add up over time.

I honestly could not imagine going to a club and not having multiple men put their hands on me. Small of my back when they walk past (they don't do this to other men), side of my waist if they try to talk to me (they don't do this to other men), coming up behind me if I'm dancing and grinding on me (they don't do this to other men).

All things you very likely view as fine and all innocent while they are really fucking annoying and objectifying. And don't warrant you stepping in perhaps but do warrant you showing us empathy when we tell you that having that shit happen so, so, so often by so, so, so many different blokes means that it's even more disappointing when we flag situations like a boss pressing his crotch against us and you saying you wouldn't intervene because you don't know if we might be enjoying it... Jesus wept.

@Youarefakenews

I doubt very many Women go out to the pub or club either without a partner or a friend. So they have that other Women there to call in help.

You said partner, not friend. Hence my comment on that.

You've just responded to my post explaining that women feel harassed in a number of ways that may be invisible to men, that their pleas for this to be acknowledged by men are dismissed and that it's not taken seriously... by dismissing them one by one and not taking them seriously.

You couldn't be more of an example of the reluctance of even 'good guys' to simply listen to us and believe us when we tell you what happens to us and how it makes us feel.

You aren't one of the good guys. You're one of the ones who acts in a way that makes us NOT "jump up and down" and flag down help when this stuff happens. Because you don't think we should be bothered by this stuff. We are.

I hope you don't have daughters who eventually come to you about this topic. Catcalling and other unwanted attention starts for most of us around 12/13 years old. And then we have decades of it to look forward to.

A large number of us will be sexually assaulted and raped. I note that you didn't express sympathy for those of us who shared we had been raped as you were more focused on defending your character than understanding other peoples experiences.

It's sad and disappointing. And part of the problem.

You've just minimised and dismissed a woman's experiences. 'Good guys' don't do that.

Did none of you ever go out to pull the opposite sex back in the day?
I've never gone out "on the pull" (and bold of you to assume sexuality), only ever gone out to have a good time with my friends but stopped doing that a while ago as I got fed up with being groped and assaulted. Every time we planned a girls night out I found myself getting filled with dread and anxiety at what might happen as men always ruined it for me and my friends.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@Youarefakenews

I doubt very many Women go out to the pub or club either without a partner or a friend. So they have that other Women there to call in help.

You said partner, not friend. Hence my comment on that.

You've just responded to my post explaining that women feel harassed in a number of ways that may be invisible to men, that their pleas for this to be acknowledged by men are dismissed and that it's not taken seriously... by dismissing them one by one and not taking them seriously.

You couldn't be more of an example of the reluctance of even 'good guys' to simply listen to us and believe us when we tell you what happens to us and how it makes us feel.

You aren't one of the good guys. You're one of the ones who acts in a way that makes us NOT "jump up and down" and flag down help when this stuff happens. Because you don't think we should be bothered by this stuff. We are.

I hope you don't have daughters who eventually come to you about this topic. Catcalling and other unwanted attention starts for most of us around 12/13 years old. And then we have decades of it to look forward to.

A large number of us will be sexually assaulted and raped. I note that you didn't express sympathy for those of us who shared we had been raped as you were more focused on defending your character than understanding other peoples experiences.

It's sad and disappointing. And part of the problem.

You've just minimised and dismissed a woman's experiences. 'Good guys' don't do that. [/quote]
What did the watching friend do in this scenario? Did she approach the bar staff? Did she contact the door staff? I am not saying you shouldn't be bothered by things that you feel uncomfortable or disrespectful. But the reality is that if neither the person being assaulted or her friend who may witness it let others know. How do you expect somebody completely disconnected to you or your friendship group to know?

@cuno

Did none of you ever go out to pull the opposite sex back in the day? I've never gone out "on the pull" (and bold of you to assume sexuality), only ever gone out to have a good time with my friends but stopped doing that a while ago as I got fed up with being groped and assaulted. Every time we planned a girls night out I found myself getting filled with dread and anxiety at what might happen as men always ruined it for me and my friends.

Let me rephrase then. You never went out in an evening to hopefully meet somebody you found sexually attractive?

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@Youarefakenews

I doubt very many Women go out to the pub or club either without a partner or a friend. So they have that other Women there to call in help.

You said partner, not friend. Hence my comment on that.

You've just responded to my post explaining that women feel harassed in a number of ways that may be invisible to men, that their pleas for this to be acknowledged by men are dismissed and that it's not taken seriously... by dismissing them one by one and not taking them seriously.

You couldn't be more of an example of the reluctance of even 'good guys' to simply listen to us and believe us when we tell you what happens to us and how it makes us feel.

You aren't one of the good guys. You're one of the ones who acts in a way that makes us NOT "jump up and down" and flag down help when this stuff happens. Because you don't think we should be bothered by this stuff. We are.

I hope you don't have daughters who eventually come to you about this topic. Catcalling and other unwanted attention starts for most of us around 12/13 years old. And then we have decades of it to look forward to.

A large number of us will be sexually assaulted and raped. I note that you didn't express sympathy for those of us who shared we had been raped as you were more focused on defending your character than understanding other peoples experiences.

It's sad and disappointing. And part of the problem.

You've just minimised and dismissed a woman's experiences. 'Good guys' don't do that. [/quote]
Actually re=reading what I originally said. I said partner or FRIEND.

Let me rephrase then. You never went out in an evening to hopefully meet somebody you found sexually attractive?
No, and even if I did I wouldn't sexually assault anyone.

@Youarefakenews

What did the watching friend do in this scenario? Did she approach the bar staff? Did she contact the door staff? I am not saying you shouldn't be bothered by things that you feel uncomfortable or disrespectful.

Why on earth do you keep asking questions about imaginary scenarios when women aren't talking about one off, specific incidents but appealing to you to listen to them about the experience of being a woman and having frequent, unwanted and disturbing attention (both verbal and physical) from men throughout their lives? Like what's in it for you to do that? To respond this way to posts that are essentially describing trauma?

And thanks for still not acknowledging those of us who have shared we've been raped. Or assaulted. And how those experiences and those of our female loved ones add to our disappointment in men's reactions. Unless your permission to be 'bothered by things that we feel are uncomfortable or disrespectful'. I note you're careful to say things we 'feel' are uncomfortable or disrespectful. Not therefore recognising that things we've described simply are uncomfortable or disrespectful.

@cuno

Let me rephrase then. You never went out in an evening to hopefully meet somebody you found sexually attractive? No, and even if I did I wouldn't sexually assault anyone.

Well frankly you are the exception to the rule. Up until VERY recently (covid) a great many men and women went out at the weekend for that very reason.

Also can you clarify what you define as sexual assault?

Also can you clarify what you define as sexual assault?

Are we feeding the troll at this point?

My head hurts from banging it against a metaphorical brick wall.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@Youarefakenews

What did the watching friend do in this scenario? Did she approach the bar staff? Did she contact the door staff? I am not saying you shouldn't be bothered by things that you feel uncomfortable or disrespectful.

Why on earth do you keep asking questions about imaginary scenarios when women aren't talking about one off, specific incidents but appealing to you to listen to them about the experience of being a woman and having frequent, unwanted and disturbing attention (both verbal and physical) from men throughout their lives? Like what's in it for you to do that? To respond this way to posts that are essentially describing trauma?

And thanks for still not acknowledging those of us who have shared we've been raped. Or assaulted. And how those experiences and those of our female loved ones add to our disappointment in men's reactions. Unless your permission to be 'bothered by things that we feel are uncomfortable or disrespectful'. I note you're careful to say things we 'feel' are uncomfortable or disrespectful. Not therefore recognising that things we've described simply are uncomfortable or disrespectful. [/quote]
And you aren't listening to what is the reality of what the men you think should stand up to you have actually witnessed. It is all very well to say 'you felt uncomfortable'. How does the rest of the club know this? If for arguments sake we say the club is split 50/50 men and women. Theoretically by what you have said before, a good proportion of the women would pick up on your discomfort. Do any of them alert a member of the clubs staff?

Before you go any further on the 'you showed us no sympathy' let me just stop you. You have no bloody idea my background or any of the things I have went through, just the same as I have no knowledge of yours. This is an internet forum, I don't know you and vice versa.

@Youarefakenews
Actually can you enlighten us on what you define as sexual assault?

And you aren't listening to what is the reality of what the men you think should stand up to you have actually witnessed.

Stand up FOR us not TO us.

You've shown yourself there.

Lack of sincerity, sympathy and critical thinking.

I sort of hope you're on a wind up and not someone who actually thinks you're a nice bloke.

Thank god your partner at least has the guts to stand up and be counted.

Enjoy your fragile masculinity and male privilege mate, it suits you.

@Youarefakenews

What do you define as sexual assault?

There is a legal definition of sexual assault. In the Sexual Offences Act 2003. It's easy reading, you can look it up.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/3

I doubt very many Women go out to the pub or club either without a partner or a friend.

🤔 I can't think why not......

But actually when I traveled a lot for work I often had to sit in a bar on my own to get my dinner. I was always being hit on. Men would even ask the bar staff my room number (and be told it) so they could knock on my door and harass me. Or phone my room. Until I would threaten to call reception.
This was all very common. And I did nothing to invite it. And I'm not especially attractive either.
I started taking a book with me to dinner, but it didn't deter them. Creeps.

As for somebody dancing close to you, the easiest thing in the world is for you to move positions on the dance floor

And again showing your ignorance.

“The easiest thing in the world”? Fuck off. It is a fucking nightmare trying to get away from a bloke that’s determined to keep grabbing you and “dancing” with you.

You move, he just moves with you. Until eventually you have to stop dancing, again modifying your behaviour to stop a man.

Jesus. men really don’t get it, do they.

Did none of you ever go out to pull the opposite sex back in the day?
Not specifically no.
I've always gone out to have a good time. I've never gone out with the sole intention of 'pulling'.
However, even if I had, that doesn't mean I deserve to be sexually assaulted.

@Youarefakenews

I have read back over this thread. There appears to be around four people on it who no matter what anyone says, still say that men should speak out, are the problem, should protect us etc. But will not listen to the thoughts or opinions of anyone else.

The reality is the average man in the pub or club is likely there with his partner & friends at the end of the week enjoying himself. He is unlikely to have picked up on your discomfort. In the same way as his partner and her female friend have failed to notice it.

The average man is not condoning anything untoward. He simply does not know it is going on, exactly the same as the vast majority of the pub or club.

If what you are saying is correct, then why aren't all the Women in the clubs seeing you be assaulted and saying to their partners? The reality is that nobody other than you and the perpetrator know it is happening. Please stop blaming MOST men for something they aren't doing and are unaware of.

You men are the ones that wont listen.

I notice you have not addressed my posts at all, instead of listening to the bloody point it always goes back to you thinking about white knighting rather then realizing by that point society has failed.

you lot make up 49% of the country stop treating women and girls like meat and make it intolerable for your mates too, just like you will not tolerate blatant racism. start demanding misogyny be added to hate crime law, we all know why it isnt part of hate crime law now (because 90% of you fear falling foul of it if it was because "banter")

who knows maybe when you start tackling your own and the toxic male culture towards others you can then start dealing with how it fucks you all up, the male prison population in this country is 77k do you know how many women are in prison? 3k so yes crime is very much a male problem.

@Youarefakenews

Your point appeared to be that you are unaware these things happen and can therefore not do anything, and how women have to stop blaming the good men for what bad men do and have had responses detailing how, when and how often they do.
Instead of listening, you keep repeating how you don't see it, how can you be a knight in shining armour and live up to your good guy self image if you don't know! But you're picking apart those experiences, making excuses for some of the behaviour, asking if women have never been out on the pull, demanding to know if the woman being assaulted has responded in a way that you think is acceptable, saying the reason you don't get involved is she might like it and you don't know she doesn't.

Making yourself and other 'good' men the victim of women's response to being sexually and physically assaulted regularly, or denying it happens instead.

We can't even get being abused right according to some men can we?!

Let me rephrase then. You never went out in an evening to hopefully meet somebody you found sexually attractive?

Nope. Some of us are actually not that fucking desperate. And what ever we are ‘looking for’, it doesn’t involve having unwanted and invasive following and physical contact foisted on us without our consent. But that didn’t even require explanation. And posters like this have made it transparently clear they're not here to maintain any kind of meaningful dialogue, but to strut their masculine privilege around like a peacock struts its feathers.

I suspect the red pill sites are having a quiet period this week. The misogyny is dripping from these men's every posts.