To be so annoyed by the term birth givers

[UniverseSeekerUK]

Having seen that some NHS trusts have decided to use the term Birth Giver it has really annoyed me. It feels as though while they are trying to be inclusive, they are slowly ridding women of everything that is unique to them. Periods, breastfeeding, giving birth are now being generalized and it almost feels as though being a woman won't even be a recognized thing anymore.

Is there no way we can achieve inclusivity without reminding ourselves that women are the sex that do all of these things?

AIBU to be so annoyed by the term birth givers?

@Viviennemary

Does it really matter. All this frothing. Who cares.

Gods sake, of course it matters. To roughly 51% of the entire population it matters. We are not few in number and you know what, women matter. If things like this that affect so many dont matter then leave it as it was.

@DisappearingGirl

Also a thought experiment. I'd love to hear any answers!

If I read "people with a cervix" then I know it means female people.

But what if my son asks me, Mum, will I need to go for a smear test? How do I explain to him in "inclusive" language how I know that he (and his male friends) will not need to go for a smear test?

I guess you say to him, "If you have a penis, you do not have a cervix, but you do have a prostate. If you have a vulva, you have a cervix and a uterus and will menstruate if everything is working as it should."

My question is this.

When I was a child my mum told me that the difference between boys and girls is that boys have willies and girls don't. If that's no longer what people are teaching their children about what a boy is and what a girl is, what are they teaching them instead? How do you explain what a boy is and what a girl is?

Because if it's "a girl is a child who likes wearing princess dresses and playing with Barbies, and a boy is a child who likes dinosaurs and playing with Lego", that is the opposite of progressive.

And if you are raising your child as non-binary, or teaching them that they can decide whether they are a girl or a boy, how the hell are they supposed to do that if they don't have a clear idea about what a girl is and what a boy is? Clearly in this scenario a boy can't be a child who has a penis, because you either are a child with a penis or you aren't one. It's not something you can choose. So if being a boy is something you can choose, what are they choosing to be? What do they think a boy is?

@Viviennemary

Does it really matter. All this frothing. Who cares.

I care. It's just wanky shite.

when these threads occur why are there always people saying "omg men can't have babies" or talking about m2f trans. do they think these threads are about people who are born men? Surely anyone (well most) people who are insisting you don't call them or identify them as women, are pretty clearly not m2f trans, do I don't really get where they come into it or how they feature so heavily in these threads

@OneTC

when these threads occur why are there always people saying "omg men can't have babies" or talking about m2f trans. do they think these threads are about people who are born men? Surely anyone (well most) people who are insisting you don't call them or identify them as women, are pretty clearly not m2f trans, do I don't really get where they come into it or how they feature so heavily in these threads

@334bu 's excellent post on the last page at around 15.44 explains this in detail.

YANBU.
The erasure of women continues..
It's depressing.

@OneTC

when these threads occur why are there always people saying "omg men can't have babies" or talking about m2f trans. do they think these threads are about people who are born men? Surely anyone (well most) people who are insisting you don't call them or identify them as women, are pretty clearly not m2f trans, do I don't really get where they come into it or how they feature so heavily in these threads

Put shortly there are 2 camps who want the change.

Some women who have decided that they don't want to be women. Some of whom are non binary and others have a GRC. At least one of who has gone on to be pregnant and give birth. Which should in and of itself negate the GRC, which includes an undertaking to be 'male'. They want mother to include their male identifying, GRC carrying selves - or rather for mother to disappear, thus making them part of a new norm.

Others are transwomen, who are not and never will be women or mothers. They want the terms to be eradicated so as not to make them feel 'othered' or not included. Nobody can veer away from TWAW.

So the only people who don't want this would be women and mothers who are, well, women and/or mothers, plus anyone else who doesn't buy into gender ideology. That would be the vast majority of people, no matter whose poll you read.

And that's just going by feelings and perceptions. It doesn't even begin to take into account medical science, clarity of communication or any other reasons.

My question is this.

When I was a child my mum told me that the difference between boys and girls is that boys have willies and girls don't. If that's no longer what people are teaching their children about what a boy is and what a girl is, what are they teaching them instead? How do you explain what a boy is and what a girl is?

Because if it's "a girl is a child who likes wearing princess dresses and playing with Barbies, and a boy is a child who likes dinosaurs and playing with Lego", that is the opposite of progressive.

And if you are raising your child as non-binary, or teaching them that they can decide whether they are a girl or a boy, how the hell are they supposed to do that if they don't have a clear idea about what a girl is and what a boy is? Clearly in this scenario a boy can't be a child who has a penis, because you either are a child with a penis or you aren't one. It's not something you can choose. So if being a boy is something you can choose, what are they choosing to be? What do they think a boy is?

I’ve seen three types of answer to this question:

1. A circular definition e.g. “a boy is a person who identifies as a boy” or “a boy is a person who uses masculine pronouns” or “a boy is a person who is generally perceived by society to be a boy”.

2. A word salad of a definition, perhaps including free spirits, mystical essences, limitless feelings or existing outside of societal constructs.

3. Attacking the question, e.g. “how regressive of you to define boys by their genitals”, or “it’s none of your business what’s in someone else’s pants, you pervert”.

And Dr Xand got himself stick on a variant of number 1. Such a waste of a long and expensive education!

@Viviennemary

Does it really matter. All this frothing. Who cares.

If it doesn't matter why change it at all?

I’ve seen three types of answer to this question:

1) A circular definition e.g. “a boy is a person who identifies as a boy” or “a boy is a person who uses masculine pronouns” or “a boy is a person who is generally perceived by society to be a boy”.

What are they identifying with?

Pronouns are supposed to describe reality, not define it. What is the material difference between a person who uses masculine pronouns and a person who uses feminine pronouns? In French a table has feminine pronouns. If it had masculine pronouns it would still be a four legged piece of furniture with a flat top providing a level surface for working, eating or drinking at.

2) A word salad of a definition, perhaps including free spirits, mystical essences, limitless feelings or existing outside of societal constructs.

Word salad indeed. Also unclear how this relates to being a man or a woman. Either it is so deeply personal to the individual that it defies description, or it is generic enough to be used as a label for half the population, and can be described. Pick one or the other.

3) Attacking the question, e.g. “how regressive of you to define boys by their genitals”, or “it’s none of your business what’s in someone else’s pants, you pervert”.

In other words, going on the defensive in order to detract from the fact that it is far more regressive to define little boys as being made of slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails, as opposed to little girls who are made of sugar and spice and all things nice.

Hey if men think they can give birth too which is clearly their intent by the phrasing, brilliant. You fellas start shoving a melon down your penis, get back to me when you can no longer tolerate the pain and I might give you paracetamol. Certainly not morphine, you're a man, you can handle the pain.

Transpeople, unless you were BORN a woman and CHANGE to a man, you cannot have children. Until medicine and surgery catches up on that, you must be born female to have a child. Sucks, but that's the way of it.

@Butteryflakycrust83

But its not an either/or scenario is it?

So why is it erasure?

I think the word is grim and I am sure those who do not want to be called Mother would prefer a different word too.

It's erasure because it's part of a wider push to change language and to remove women's rights.

Man identifies as a woman, gets sent to a female prison, sexually assaults women.
Man identifies as a woman, gets onto the women's swimming team at his uni, wins all the prizes.

Look up Karen White and Lia Thomas if you think 'Oh, that would never happen!'
Those are just the tip of the iceberg, just the start of what's coming if we don't kick up a fuss.

I guess they would have to change the job title "midwife" too, as it means "with woman".

It's going too far to protect a minority and having a negative impact on the majority.

When I was a child my mum told me that the difference between boys and girls is that boys have willies and girls don't. If that's no longer what people are teaching their children about what a boy is and what a girl is, what are they teaching them instead? How do you explain what a boy is and what a girl is?

We'll exactly. I agree with the three most common answers someone outlined - none of which help.

A very good friend of mine, lovely, sensible and incredibly intelligent, has always been very against gender stereotypes, especially for kids. And yet she seems to totally buy into gender ideology. I've no idea how she would explain what a woman is. Possibly to do with inner gender identity which is of course nothing to do with gender stereotypes. I kind of want to talk to her about it, but don't want to fall out!

A very good friend of mine, lovely, sensible and incredibly intelligent, has always been very against gender stereotypes, especially for kids. And yet she seems to totally buy into gender ideology. I've no idea how she would explain what a woman is. Possibly to do with inner gender identity which is of course nothing to do with gender stereotypes. I kind of want to talk to her about it, but don't want to fall out!

But either you believe being a woman is about being biologically female (in which case it's not something you can choose to be or not be), or it's about conforming to feminine stereotypes (in which case that is the opposite of progressive and excludes women who aren't stereotypically feminine).

Am I missing something obvious?

What else could it be?

If it doesn't matter it can be fucking well left as it was.

Most insightful comment I've seen in quite a while.

Future of Legal Gender want to erase any and all recording of sex or single sex spaces, etc. It’s all disturbing. I’ve also seen Black Birthing Bodies which sounds disturbing, they’re just bodies?!

babyjellyfish I do completely agree with you by the way! In case that was unclear

@Cattenberg Thank you for think link, I thought I had dreamt up the ‘bodies with vaginas’ saga when it was happening on Twitter 🙄

I care too. I don't froth.

We care because we are not getting treated like human beings. To be referred to as 'pregnant persons' and not mothers is just demeaning. Fathers on the other hand are fine - they are not called sperm donors.

I feel the whole trans debate puts women in an impossible position. On the one hand, if you truly believe yourself to be born the wrong sex then of course you should transition in peace.

On the other hand, the total erosion of WOMEN’s rights and identity is unacceptable.

Why aren’t men having to compromise for female trans?
Why is it just women that have to put up with this bullshit?

When put with violence against women
98% of rapists getting away with it. It seems that men are trying to destroy and diminish us. We should not forget how hard women have fought to get the vote get jobs and get equality and we should not stop fighting because some men clearly haven’t got the memo.

It’s not about the name birth giver. It’s that we have to compromise everything we are for a minority while men don’t accord us the same respect

Literally never seen the phrase "birth-giver" or "chest-feeder" being used IRL and can't care about it until I do.

Plenty of people say these words are being used to erase "woman", but I'm yet to see it.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

There should'nt even be any bloody debate.

ONLY women give birth. Almost all will want to be called mum or mother.

Why do we need to pander to the demands of the minuscule number of females who want to use their female body to get pregnant whilst claiming to not be women?

It isn't 'inclusive' to dehumanise the majority because a few females are seemingly triggered by words, but not their biology? How convenient to pick and choose.

Men don't get pregnant or give birth. We don't need to pretend otherwise.

Oh my god this is exactly it.