To be so annoyed by the term birth givers

[UniverseSeekerUK]

Having seen that some NHS trusts have decided to use the term Birth Giver it has really annoyed me. It feels as though while they are trying to be inclusive, they are slowly ridding women of everything that is unique to them. Periods, breastfeeding, giving birth are now being generalized and it almost feels as though being a woman won't even be a recognized thing anymore.

Is there no way we can achieve inclusivity without reminding ourselves that women are the sex that do all of these things?

AIBU to be so annoyed by the term birth givers?

I’m enraged about this too! You cannot erase women out of this world which is exactly what they are trying to do with this bullshit!

To be honest, there's always a million and one threads about this and you'd have to be brand new to Mumsnet not to know the common MN feeling around this.

In my view, I think it's a bit like the mythical "you can't even say happy Christmas anymore" brigade who are happy to loudly complain about something that doesn't actually seem at all prevalent.

I'll get my knickers in a knot about it when it's actually an issue. My experience with this clinically is that when midwifes are looking after a trans patient they may refer to breastfeeding as chest feeding, and say birth giver rather than birthing mum etc. It's being sensitive and individualising care to that one specific patient. I've never ever in my experience heard the terms used for anyone other than a trans patient, ie most women!!

And yet I haven't seen any suggestions that men be called 'Sperm providers'. So annoying.

There is motive behind this language and anyone who tries to suggest women are 'frothing' by protesting is being disingenuous at the least. It isn't about the women refusing to be called mother, it's about the men who can never be and so want to utterly divorce women from it. Also handily manages to dehumanise us neatly, making surrogacy a much less vile sounding idea - babies aren't removed from their mother, but from their 'birth giver'. 🤮

Posters all over my local pharmacy about 'breast and chest feeding families' without one single mention of either 'mother' or 'woman'. I can tell you now, in my 8 years of breastfeeding, not once has it been a 3am family fucking pursuit, and I don't appreciate being wiped out of the equation to please anyone.

Is this not for clarity where the couple are same sex, i.e. both women? They might both be 'mother' to the child but only one of them will give birth.

Here’s a link to the research paper. It’s well worth reading IMO.

internal-journal.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full?fbclid=IwAR1GmMyg9yC58i3SargXSSpsw1NgaVoD6raB8cz40YuEgx9VxFTr5A4m4OQ

I think even if you don’t care about it from a women’s rights perspective, surely you can see it’s potentially damaging from a language and clarity perspective.

The first role of any communication is to be clear, and this is really important especially in health-related matters. If I was pregnant and English wasn’t my first language, or I had low levels of English comprehension and saw a service aimed at ‘birth givers’ I - as a pregnant woman - might not understand that this is a service for me. For example if I were in France I could relatively confidently understand if a health service states it is aimed at women. Swap for the French equivalent of ‘Birth givers’ and I’d struggle.

And I think the low levels of education is an important point. Often the trans debate is dominated by highly educated individuals who predominantly mix with others similar to themselves. And so the fact that a significant proportion of people do not have GCSE level English comprehension levels doesn’t even enter their heads.

@Viviennemary

Does it really matter. All this frothing. Who cares.

As long as people take the 'Who cares' view then such rubbish will continue.

I don't really understand why woman can't be used for the majority and birth giver for transmen who are pregnant and don't wish to be referred to as a woman. PP is right that not every woman who has a baby identifies as a birth giver, why can't everyone just have the words that they want if the world is supposed to be so inclusive to everyone's feelings?

So it's 'frothing' when actual women want rights, but not when the minority kick up a stink?

Okay then.

It matters to me. I’m a MOTHER, mum, mummy, Mama. Being a mother is the best thing I’ve ever done and the most important part of my life. Are we going to get schools afraid to use the word too?

According to the National Literacy Trust 16% of adults in the UK are functionally illiterate. Using phrases such as ‘birth giver’ rather than pregnant woman is not going to help these individuals access the healthcare they need.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

There should'nt even be any bloody debate.

ONLY women give birth. Almost all will want to be called mum or mother.

Why do we need to pander to the demands of the minuscule number of females who want to use their female body to get pregnant whilst claiming to not be women?

It isn't 'inclusive' to dehumanise the majority because a few females are seemingly triggered by words, but not their biology? How convenient to pick and choose.

Men don't get pregnant or give birth. We don't need to pretend otherwise.

All of this.

A small group of people who have chosen to exclude themselves from the word "woman" because they believe that it is a gender identity rather than simply a word that means female people now want those of us who believe it means female people to come up with new words for female people and use them do that they can be included.

@ClariceQuiff

Is this not for clarity where the couple are same sex, i.e. both women? They might both be 'mother' to the child but only one of them will give birth.

This was my first thought

Can someone clarify how it ERASES women, as it appears that for the vast majority of us, we will still be referred to as mothers.

In rare and specific examples, on the request of the patient, they may be referred to as a birther (or chest feeder) or whatever they have requested.

I do not see the harm?

Holy Mary, birth giver of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death, Amen. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it as Holy Mary, mother of God.
I'm not particularly religious although I am RC but please stop messing with language as my ASD brain can't handle it.

If you give birth you are a mother. It's that simple.

Sounds like something from the handmaids tale, birth giver. 🤔

They need to stop this stomping out of women. Why does everything have to be gender neutral? If a trans man gives birth to a baby, I'm sorry to say they are clearly still a woman!

Birth giver seems so detached.

Perhaps it's part of the push to promote surrogacy?

@DropYourSword

To be honest, there's always a million and one threads about this and you'd have to be brand new to Mumsnet not to know the common MN feeling around this.

In my view, I think it's a bit like the mythical "you can't even say happy Christmas anymore" brigade who are happy to loudly complain about something that doesn't actually seem at all prevalent.

I'll get my knickers in a knot about it when it's actually an issue. My experience with this clinically is that when midwifes are looking after a trans patient they may refer to breastfeeding as chest feeding, and say birth giver rather than birthing mum etc. It's being sensitive and individualising care to that one specific patient. I've never ever in my experience heard the terms used for anyone other than a trans patient, ie most women!!

If you don't think it's prevalent, there's an awful lot of evidence out there to the contrary if you'd care to look. Or I'm happy to post links?

@Butteryflakycrust83

Can someone clarify how it ERASES women, as it appears that for the vast majority of us, we will still be referred to as mothers.

In rare and specific examples, on the request of the patient, they may be referred to as a birther (or chest feeder) or whatever they have requested.

I do not see the harm?

It is the language used in some official hospital documents now. Also in some scientific articles and journals.

Reducing women to our bodily functions, carving us up into pieces that, ‘bleed’ ‘birth’ ‘secrete milk’ ‘black bodies that bleed’ ‘menstruate’ ‘vagina havers’ etc plays right into the hands of MRA’s and TRA’s who are all in the same camp. They dehumanise women so we are no more than our bodily functions to use, profit from and discard.

Men are NEVER spoken about in these terms. It is misogyny and female erasure.

Words matter.

Yeah I'm happy for you to post links to any NHS trusts that use this sort of language

There is and never can be "inclusivity" in childbirth. You have to be female to give birth, you need a cervix and you need ovaries .therefore, that makes you a woman

I hate shit like this.
I'm waiting for the day they change the word for vagina so it's more 'inclusive'.
I genuinely fucking hate the society we live in now.
Women strive for equality for themselves and for everyone else and get ignored in the process.

@Butteryflakycrust83

Can someone clarify how it ERASES women, as it appears that for the vast majority of us, we will still be referred to as mothers.

In rare and specific examples, on the request of the patient, they may be referred to as a birther (or chest feeder) or whatever they have requested.

I do not see the harm?

There is no longer a word for "biologically female people".

That's how women are being erased.