To think a lot of lonely people have brought it on themselves?

[LovelyYellowLabrador]

Just been watching a channel 4 thing on YouTube about lonely people
Most of them were like-no one calls…. They don’t see anyone all day
They maybe have had a marriage where their partner was the only other person they spent time with so when threat person has passed away they have no one else

Just think people need to think more about what they are doing
They expect their adult children to call them all the time and visit
Yet don’t stop to pause to think have I been a good parent am I draining or overly negative

Or they could think right no one’s called me, who am I going to call
How am I going to make and keep some friends

I think that making and keeping friends takes some effort, compromise and putting yourself out there and being out of your comfort zone for a while.

One of my closest friends is single and lives a very solitary life. Her work doesn't give her the opportunity to meet many people. But she doesn't join anything or make any effort to meet and get to know people local to her. She hasn't had a boyfriend in many years but she would never do online dating. She has lived in the same place for 15 years and doesn't have any friends. In the same time, I have moved twice and set up completely new friendship groups and have had 2 long term relationships and a couple of short relationships. I know most of my neighbours and am good friends with a few. When my kids were little, all my socialising was with other mums, but I didn't know anyone when I moved here so I had to start speaking to other mums at playgroups. Then when I split up with my ex and worked from home, I started new hobbies and did online dating because I had more free time and I didn't want to spend all my time at home.

I invite people round, I organise outings, parties, walks in the woods etc.

I completely understand that it is easier for some people than others but I know if I was to suddenly live in my friend's world in her circumstances that within a month I would have met the neighbours, joined local clubs, looked at online meetups and would have a pretty packed calendar.

My friend is lovely and I love her dearly. She's happy to join stuff but is shy so what may be slightly uncomfortable to me would be excruciatingly painful for her.

@Momijin

I think that making and keeping friends takes some effort, compromise and putting yourself out there and being out of your comfort zone for a while.

One of my closest friends is single and lives a very solitary life. Her work doesn't give her the opportunity to meet many people. But she doesn't join anything or make any effort to meet and get to know people local to her. She hasn't had a boyfriend in many years but she would never do online dating. She has lived in the same place for 15 years and doesn't have any friends. In the same time, I have moved twice and set up completely new friendship groups and have had 2 long term relationships and a couple of short relationships. I know most of my neighbours and am good friends with a few. When my kids were little, all my socialising was with other mums, but I didn't know anyone when I moved here so I had to start speaking to other mums at playgroups. Then when I split up with my ex and worked from home, I started new hobbies and did online dating because I had more free time and I didn't want to spend all my time at home.

I invite people round, I organise outings, parties, walks in the woods etc.

I completely understand that it is easier for some people than others but I know if I was to suddenly live in my friend's world in her circumstances that within a month I would have met the neighbours, joined local clubs, looked at online meetups and would have a pretty packed calendar.

My friend is lovely and I love her dearly. She's happy to join stuff but is shy so what may be slightly uncomfortable to me would be excruciatingly painful for her.

Is she unhappy, though, @Momijin? I do agree with you that if you move a lot (I have), and if friendships are important to you, then you need to be quite proactive about making new ones, but it may be that your friend is happier not to have a 'pretty packed calendar'? Or that the effort needed for someone you say is shy, and who also sounds rather passive, to put herself out there for friendships or relationships outweighs for her the advantages of having more friends or a relationship?

@Leighcloon

Another important thing to remember is that being unlikeable doesn't mean that you're unkind or unworthy.

Well, no, but surely it might go some way to explaining why you might struggle to make friends, @Jannt86?

Maybe so but please do explain how such a person has 'bought it on themselves' You can't really choose to be more likeable. You can choose to be louder or quieter or fake or less fake. You can even choose to be prettier/less pretty to a degree. What you really can't choose though is the social skills and human connections that are necessary to truly make friends. Half of this is down to how you were raised as a child and the experiences you had as a child, the other half is your DNA. I'd love to hear what part of that an individual has control over...

I never suggested that an unlikeable person has in any way 'brought it on themselves', @Jannt86. I think you're relating my question back to the OP's post, whereas I was only responding to yours.

But, since you ask, I think 'likeability' is pretty subjective -- no one is universally likeable. I'm certainly not, though I have good, lasting friendships that enrich my life. Equally, I'm not everyone's cup of tea.

I do think, though, that you can learn social skills, even if you were raised with poor friendship models and some deeply odd ideas about human relationships.

My parents gave me very odd, unhelpful childhood scripts about friendships. I've talked about them on here before under previous user names. My father is not NT and his only 'friends' are people he's never met in the flesh, who live on the other side of the world and with whom his interactions are purely formal conversations about the weather and hobby-related stuff. He knows nothing about these people beyond their names and equipment types.

My mother is a chronic people-pleaser who chooses to be a shoulder to cry on for the unwell and unlucky because it makes her feed needed, and then gets very bitter when they don't invite her to 'fun' stuff when they're feeling better. I don't think she has a single real friend in the world, because her only contribution to these relationships is to abase herself to the other person's needs and nod along with whatever they're saying -- there's nothing of herself in there. Her phone calls with them can last an hour in which she sounds like a Samaritan.

I had to learn as a young adult how to negotiate friendships, after I'd realised how skewed my parents' ideas about them were.

I think it's a realisation that would benefit many Mners who struggle with friendships, whose posts express bafflement that no one invites them to things when they're 'been there for them' for years. Positioning yourself as a service provider/permanently available listening ear or shoulder to cry on/rescuer is no way to make friends.

@Leighcloon she wouldn't want my pace of life, no, but she would like to do more. It would be perfect if she lived close to me or someone like me where she could join when she wanted. At least that's what I think.

It's if you go and do things and see people that's at the right amount for you. And that will vary between people. Pre-Covid, and whether I was single/living on my own or living with DH, I found my limit was being out twice a week - and that's not wild nights out, that's going to a craft group, or meeting a group of friends for a meal or having a coffee with one friend or attending a meeting at church. Sometimes I did do more than that, but it was too much and left me feeling like I couldn't keep up - bearing in mind if you work full time you've got to do your cooking/housework/making packed lunch sometime!

I did really struggle with one now-ex friend who was a teacher and lived alone and who was 'too busy' during term time to ever want to speak on the phone or email or even msg. She lived a couple of hours away so visits involved an overnight stay so were less often. But as soon as the school hols started she was at a loose end and wanted to be on the phone having lengthy chats several times a week. I was never quite sure why she thought it was ok to ignore me during term time and then expect me to be instantly available in the school hols! She ended up an alcoholic and, after trying to help her get help multiple times, all she wanted was 2am lengthy drunken conversations I had to say I wasn't going to take calls during the night again as it was affecting my work. But apparently this wasn't being a good friend!

@Jannt86 but you can to a certain extent work on childhood experiences and try and change how you behave? I was brought up to be a doormat - other people were always right, you went around not putting others out, didn't assert yourself and martyred yourself helping people. My DM way of acting is to adopt as many people as possible who need help, moan about one person to a different person and circle around her acquaintances moaning about all of them. That was how I learnt friendship operated. It's kind of backfired on her in this age of social media!

But I've managed to unlearn it and found much more positive ways of interacting with people and not being a doormat. It has taken a lot of effort and I did go through a lot of counselling in my 20s which helped.

I have mixed feelings on this. I have autism and am an only child, never been particularly interested in romantic relationships and I don't want children. Because of this I used to worry a lot in my teens and 20s about ending up completely alone when I was older, especially as I heard so much about people losing touch with friends once they got married and had children.

As a result I put in so much effort to maintain as many friendships as I can. I had to actively try to get better at understanding what people were looking for in a friend and what behaviours pushed them away, because being autistic that didn't come naturally. I try really hard to stay in contact with friends even if we don't get much opportunity to meet up in person, so that when we are able it won't be awkward. I stay friends with people even if I have to do the vast majority of organising (and travelling if they live further away), and take the view that it's probably because they have busy lives rather than because they don't want to see me. I initiate one-on-one meetups with new friends and host group events like house parties even though I worry about being rejected or no-one turning up. I do the 'dropping in for a cup of tea if I'm in the area' thing (I do text first to check it's a good time before turning up on people's doorsteps!), accept invitations from people who wouldn't necessarily be my first choice to socialise with, and don't flake out of things once they're arranged unless I really don't have a choice. And I try to take all reasonable opportunities to get to know new people, from work Christmas parties to looking out for events and groups in my local area. My view on all this is that it's just part of the basic housekeeping of social relationships, and it irritates me when other people don't do these things and then complain that they're lonely and I wouldn't understand because it seems so easy for me to make loads of friends.

On the other hand though, a lot of it is still down to chance. I've been lucky in that I met nice people at uni, and my hobbies and (current) job attract people I have a lot in common with. My parents encouraged me to get out of my comfort zone socially as a child. I live in a friendly part of the country with a lot of people similar in age and life circumstances. And I don't have any serious physical impairments that stop me getting out much, nor have I had any good friends die. So... a bit of both, really.

It’s also quite noticeable that people on this thread seem to equate not having friend with being lonely (and having friends with not being lonely).

I think they are two different things.
You can go out, have plenty of hobbies etc.. and still be lonely. Still have no one to talk to about your very personal problems (because you know, otherwise you are draining blablabla). Still have no one to come and help you when shit hits the fan.
A good friend of mine was stranded one day and needed someone to take back home. She contacted all her local contacts and no one came. Friends? Yes to do a specific activity when everything is going well. Friend enough to come and give you a lift? Nope.

Having a large amount of friends doesn’t guarantee that you will actually have proper friends. You will have people to spend time with outside of work. People who might share a common hobby. It will probably make feel less alone. It doesn’t mean you won’t feel lonely.

Feeling lonely is different. It’s having no one you can really connect with, someone you can be vulnerable with. Someone you will support when things get tough and will be there for you when you are struggling.

Another important thing to remember is that being unlikeable doesn't mean that you're unkind or unworthy.

Well, no, but surely it might go some way to explaining why you might struggle to make friends, @Jannt86?

@Leighcloon, being likeable isn’t a characteristic that is set in stone. It very much depends on where you live and who is in front of you.

Where I live, I am not a likeable person. I’m too different for most people, have weird interest and just dint things the same way than them. Therefore, I’m not likeable.
But I’ve had many times in my life when I was a very likeable person, was surrounded by friends etc… If I’m going somewhere else, in the right environment for me, I’m back to being a nice person that is liked etc…

So I’d be very careful of starting with this idea that being likeable is a trait if character and if someone isn’t likeable it’s their fault (usually associated with no being a nice person, being unkind etc etc)

It's if you go and do things and see people that's at the right amount for you. And that will vary between people. Pre-Covid, and whether I was single/living on my own or living with DH, I found my limit was being out twice a week - and that's not wild nights out, that's going to a craft group, or meeting a group of friends for a meal or having a coffee with one friend or attending a meeting at church. Sometimes I did do more than that, but it was too much and left me feeling like I couldn't keep up - bearing in mind if you work full time you've got to do your cooking/housework/making packed lunch sometime!

That’s reassuring @RidingMyBike, 2 meet ups/activities per week sounds about right to me too, and assuming I can count my Pilates class, then I’m about on target! I also work full time and can’t do much more than 2 on a regular basis without getting stressed/grumpy!

@RidingMyBike Yes, I’ve definitely had to “unlearn” some of my Dad’s behaviour in order to maintain friendships. He’s very moody and can be judgmental, which can put people off. One day he’s lovely, the next he’s a real grump! I realized that people value consistency, as I do myself. My Mum was far more even-tempered and kept many friends, despite her deteriorating health. Some, of course, did abandon her when she wasn’t well and couldn’t go out much, but the good ones stayed in touch. She told me to value kindness in people, it’s an undervalued trait, but it’s important in friendships.

"She hasn't had a boyfriend in many years but she would never do online dating. "

That's me, but I have good reasons why I can't do online dating.

haismfh

People who aren’t very sociable tend not to end up feeling lonely when they become “alone”

That's a sweeping generalization. You say now that if one of you dies you'll be ok because you like being alone/are used to being alone.

I thought I was like that but absolutely nothing prepares you for when you really are alone, parents dead, no partner, no siblings. You're suddenly alone in the world and there's no one to talk to. There's no one to share joy or pain with. No one to tell any achievements to who would be proud of you. And no one to listen when you're worried sick about a health problem.
And having to make every damn decision by yourself. And the grind of cooking for one.

I think these "go out and join a hobby group and make an effort with people" are missing the point that it's the hours of bone-aching loneliness at home which are the problem. And also not wanting to burden others with anything, it means you have to deal with absolutely everything yourself for fear of getting dumped as a friend for daring to be negative once in a while.“

Sorry for your circumstances.

They aren’t mine, though. I do have parents, siblings, children and grandchildren. My husband and I are each other’s best friends. Neither of us are sociable, we have a dozen close but far flung friends between us. We both enjoy our own company too, always have even as young people,
When one off us goes, the other will miss them terribly but we won’t be lonely for the company of others.

Again, I’m sorry that you are.

(My husband worked away from home 5 days out of 7 for many of the over three decades of our married life. If I didn’t feel bone-aching loneliness then, I don’t think I will if he goes before I do. That might provide some context)

@MrsSkylerWhite the point is that you are and we’re NOT actually alone as such. And therefore don’t feel lonely. Even when your DH was away, he was still back home at the weekends. You still had someone to call in things were going wrong. You still had someone to talk to, not about the weather but about the things that really matter to you.

It’s not because you are single/living alone that you are alone as such.

I’ve been in that situation. Parents were overseas at the time so communication was very restricted (before the days if the internet etc…). I had no partner, only child, no family around.
I can tell you that even when you are surrounded by friends (and I was) you can still feel deeply lonely. Because being surrounded with people doesn’t mean that you have someone you can share your joys and pain in the way you do with someone you are really close to.

The difference between you and @haismfh is that she has no one and you do. Just because you have a family around you.

(My husband worked away from home 5 days out of 7 for many of the over three decades of our married life. If I didn’t feel bone-aching loneliness then, I don’t think I will if he goes before I do. That might provide some context)

I hope you don't feel that kind of loneliness if he goes before you do. But you can't be sure you won't because what you are talking about and what I and others have been talking about is not the same thing.

When a partner is working away and comes back at the weekends, you have the weekends to look forward to and can chat to someone who cares (assuming it's a good relationship of course) when he returns. You can also call him during the week or if there's an emergency. You make joint decisions about various things and have someone to discuss things with. You have someone to share funny stories of things that happened or achievements with. And at the same time someone to share any difficulties with.

If your husband goes before you, you won't have that anymore. Perhaps you will have other people who care about you or maybe not.
Maybe you'll be absolutely fine on your own and maybe you won't.

haismfh

Yes, you’re right of course, our circumstances are different.

I was responding because some posters were suggesting that it was a mistake to choose not to have lots of friends, that it was somehow unhealthy to be happy spending most of their time with a very few people. That’s what I was disagreeing with. Some people just don’t need many others and I’m one of those.

@TheApexOfMyLife

Another important thing to remember is that being unlikeable doesn't mean that you're unkind or unworthy.

Well, no, but surely it might go some way to explaining why you might struggle to make friends, @Jannt86?

@Leighcloon, being likeable isn’t a characteristic that is set in stone. It very much depends on where you live and who is in front of you.

Where I live, I am not a likeable person. I’m too different for most people, have weird interest and just dint things the same way than them. Therefore, I’m not likeable.
But I’ve had many times in my life when I was a very likeable person, was surrounded by friends etc… If I’m going somewhere else, in the right environment for me, I’m back to being a nice person that is liked etc…

So I’d be very careful of starting with this idea that being likeable is a trait if character and if someone isn’t likeable it’s their fault (usually associated with no being a nice person, being unkind etc etc)

You've misunderstood my post, @TheApexOfMyLife -- as you will see I said in my subsequent post, I'm well aware 'likeability' is subjective. Like you, I spent a period of several years living somewhere I was 'dislikeable' -- too leftwing, too educated, too foreign, too 'not our style', which was pretty dispiriting, apart from the fact that I was simultaneously 'likeable' in my new workplace, six miles away in the nearest city, because foreignness, being leftwing and having multiple postgraduate degrees are pretty ordinary in academia.

I was addressing @Jannt86's argument that being 'dislikeable' doesn't mean you are 'unkind or unworthy' -- of course it doesn't, but if you're considered 'dislikeable' by a particular individual, group or setting, then your kindness or worthiness is irrelevant to them. You just don't fit, and it doesn't matter if you're a combination of the Dalai Lama and a Macmillan nurse. In a different setting, you may well be considered fabulous.

Personally, I'm not that interested in whether potential friends are 'kind' or 'a nice person', and I don't use 'would this person help me in a crisis?' as a gauge for 'true' friendships.

I do think sometimes there are places where you just won't ever be accepted by others but if you move somewhere else you will be ok. I've had some experience of this though I also had a fuck ton of baggage towards the place myself which I think made me a bit wary around the people there to begin with.

I have lived in Surrey in the past and hated it. Definitely need to find somewhere where you can make friends and fit in. It’s very hard to be happy in a place where everything feels wrong.

I agree that you need to find the right place. In the past I have joined a workplace and immediately fitted right in, but joined somewhere else and found myself inexplicably a pariah. Otoh you have to be aware that you take your personality with you, so if every place is a problem, then it’s probably time for some self-awareness!

I'd suspect that it's unrealistic to think you can just move somewhere different and you'd be like a completely different personality, I think it's more that sometimes a place will suffocate you.

I agree that you need to find the right place. In the past I have joined a workplace and immediately fitted right in, but joined somewhere else and found myself inexplicably a pariah.

Yes! But god knows why though. I've analysed it to death and I'm still none the wiser.

I'm also not convinced that anyone can make friends anywhere if they give it enough time and effort though I've had plenty of people say otherwise. What do people think?