Manners - am I living in the past?

[NellyDElephant]

AIBU to expect my children to say, at the very minimum, thank you for dinner, please may I leave the table? Or something along those lines, after they have finished the meal I have just made them, straight after coming home from a long day at work?
Children are 7, 10, 12, 13.
Surely I’m not expecting the impossible here? Or am I living in the past and trying to help them to have the same manners I was expected to have at that age is just not going to happen?
12yr old is my DSD and it is evident these rules are not in place at her DM’s house - as there’s no evidence of any manners displayed here either. Now I’m questioning whether I’m BU!

@NellyDElephant

As some previous posters have said, for the future, I think it’s important that the DC & DSC have an awareness of how to behave at the table, hold cutlery in the correct hands, elbows off the table, don’t talk with mouth full of food, say please and thank you, and either stay at the table until everyone is finished, or ask to be excused. I’d think I’ve failed as a parent (and step-parent) if I didn’t at least convey this - repeatedly - until it sinks in! I don’t want to upset DSD, let’s face it 12 going on 13 is a tricky age anyway, she’s sulky and non-communicative and stroppy at the best of times, as is my DD ( who is less than a year older) so I know what to expect on this front - but to me, manners are non-negotiable. Trying to work out how to approach this, in a nice way. Any ideas?

With regard to your DSD then it needs her father to act as well. He might not be there at dinner always, but does he install it at the weekend? Does he model behaviour?

One of the biggest reasons, imo, that children have poorer manners now is because adults do.
It always baffles me when you see people who are rude to their partner, other parents at the school gate etc bang on about well mannered children. Modelling is the best way.

In your particular case though you need to do something because it’s not remotely healthy to have children living in the same house with, effectively, different rules.

[quote WelcomeHere]@aSofaNearYou I suppose I see it as social/family time rather than just about eating. But primarily it’s just different conventions- in my house it would be very rude, in yours it wouldn’t. I suppose this is what OP is experiencing in finding that her step-children’s mother has a different approach to hers. I think children are pretty good generally at understanding different houses have different rules, as long as it’s made clear.[/quote]
The OP’s child lives in her house. It’s got nothing to do with child’s mother and everything to do with the OP and her DH.

[quote WelcomeHere]@aSofaNearYou I suppose I see it as social/family time rather than just about eating. But primarily it’s just different conventions- in my house it would be very rude, in yours it wouldn’t. I suppose this is what OP is experiencing in finding that her step-children’s mother has a different approach to hers. I think children are pretty good generally at understanding different houses have different rules, as long as it’s made clear.[/quote]
I've noticed a lot that people tend to say "it's the only time we're all together for a conversation" often as a reason for the formalities around dinner, and I do think that's going to be less likely to be the case if your family isn't like that. We spent most of every evening together and had conversations throughout, so there was no real need for it to be whilst eating. Add to that that the dinner table was actually in the living room so you weren't even in a different room when you left the table, and it does seem quite a pointless rule.

But yes, people have different traditions. I actually find (in the case of my DSS at least, but that might just be him) that children are NOT that good at remembering different houses have different rules. But that would normally be in favour of their main household, which is OPs in this case, so hopefully it won't be too hard for her to instil the values she wants.

Teaching good manners is dull; “what do you say?” over and over but so, so worth it. I always told my kids “being well spoken and having nice manners will get you far in life”. My “kids” are now ages between 18-28 and have all told me on more than one occasion how grateful they are that we persisted.

Please and thank you definitely but we never did did the asking to leave the table
Our rule was no one left until everyone had finished unless it was urgent need for toilet in which case excuse me is fine
These days I’m always the first to get up from table to start clearing up and that is the cue for others to get up and/or help if it’s needed

@JustLyra Yes that’s my point- her house her rules.

I think a lot of the problem with children not having good manners is that their parents are lazy pure and simple. When my daughter's children were young, if she complained to me about their behaviour or lack of manners, I would point out to her, that it was her job to teach them. The answer, 'but you have to keep doing it, day after day after day, and I can't be bothered with all that'. Says it all really!

I think there is a good balance to what it's worth teaching children. Really intense attention to table manners can be really stifling. But some basic manners can be a good thing.

For example, someone who gets up from the table silently with nothing said and leaves their plate to be cleared by the cook seems quite rude. Saying thank you and scraping/loading your own plate isn't about being grateful to be fed, it shows that you appreciate the time and effort someone else put into making dinner, and a willingness to 'muck in' and not expect to be waited on.

Some basic table manners can also be good in my opinion. E.g. older children who have never been taught things like how to hold their knife and fork can have trouble cutting food, can be really messy, or some who pick at food with fingernails and eat with hands, chew with mouth open etc, or say 'I want more bread' rather than 'please pass me the bread', can be a bit unpleasant to eat with. So it's in their interests for parents to teach them a few good habits.

I would never expect my children to ask to be excused though, that is too formal for me.

I also agree that basic manners should be taught. But would only expect a child to ask if it's ok to go and do something else, when eating with wider family. I wouldn't want them to use the word may, it's too formal. I hate the saying 'get down from the table', only toddlers have to climb down from their chair, everyone else stands to leave. Table manners just stop other people being put off their food, there's a point to them. But etiquette was created to create difference and set one group higher than others, so it can shove off as far as I'm concerned.

Not unreasonable to say thank you, but I think 12 and 13 are too old to ask whether they can leave the table.

Can’t bear people that don’t have manners,it costs nothing

@Flatandhappy

Teaching good manners is dull; “what do you say?” over and over but so, so worth it. I always told my kids “being well spoken and having nice manners will get you far in life”. My “kids” are now ages between 18-28 and have all told me on more than one occasion how grateful they are that we persisted.

My gran didn’t have to ask what do you say etc etc, we stood for ages or one special look from her was enough to make me remember what to say

I voted YABU as you are their parent. Even if you have to remind them every time you should continue to remind them.

They may not embrace those manners in your home with you, and it's very annoying, but they will be polite in other people's houses, and that is what you're aiming for. To send your children out into the world with those manners.

My 5 year old twins are very hit and miss in the house, I remind them every time, they get nothing from me without a please and thank you and I always say please and thank you to them.

I am told after every party from other parents what lovely manners my two have (I'm not exaggerating, they have been to about 5 parties this school year alone and after each party it has been commented on, I remember distinctly as I'm thrilled).

The fact it bothers you is a credit to you and the fact you want these manners from your children.... Keep going, keep instilling this into them, it's the right thing to do and too few people do it!

Well done!!

@Speakuptomakeyourselfheard

I think a lot of the problem with children not having good manners is that their parents are lazy pure and simple. When my daughter's children were young, if she complained to me about their behaviour or lack of manners, I would point out to her, that it was her job to teach them. The answer, 'but you have to keep doing it, day after day after day, and I can't be bothered with all that'. Says it all really!

Absolutely with you on this,

I'm surprised at how many people don't think it's necessary to be thanked for dinner? Surely that's the bare minimum?

The asking to leave the table thing is contextual. Necessary when adults are still talking/eating/drinking etc, but not when the meal has come to a natural conclusion. Not necessary for adults because adults don't as a rule just run off because they're bored. and if they did, I wouldn't want to serve those people food anyway.

I am constantly surprised at the poor table manners of some of the DC's friends. But I'm not entirely sure whether they are always like that. At home, my children's manners are good but I do worry if I have friends who think they're feral!

My dad was very hot on table manners and it made me hate mealtimes. He'd always be barking "elbows off the table!" or some other command and I never felt I could just sit and enjoy the time together.

I am not saying manners aren't important, but I think it's unwise to go too Captain Vonn Trapp on your kids.

Asking to leave the table? Ugh.

Please and thank you, absolutely.

Our meal times are relaxed. Please and thank you essential but I don't need to be thanked for the meal. I also don't thank my oh when he cooks nor my teenager. That's just part of family life. Thanking someone else for proving a meal - yes.

I don't ask them to ask permission to leave the table. To be honest my youngest is such a slow eater that it's not generally an issue anyway. I wasn't required to ask permission to leave the table either when I was younger.

Mine ask to leave, it's just polite

Hmm, I'd say that asking permission to leave the table is OTT in this day and age.

I'm 50, and I remember my mum trying to get me to do that in the 80s, "please may I leave the table and thank you for a good dinner". I dont think that in my case, having to parrot a phrase at my mother in order to leave actually instilled good manners.

@Lunariagal

Hmm, I'd say that asking permission to leave the table is OTT in this day and age.

I'm 50, and I remember my mum trying to get me to do that in the 80s, "please may I leave the table and thank you for a good dinner". I dont think that in my case, having to parrot a phrase at my mother in order to leave actually instilled good manners.

Isn't it more about using these phrases/processes to make it understood that you can't just get up and walk off. And as children mature and become adults, that naturally transitions to a generally collaborative approach in which meal times are seen as social and that acknowledgement of the other people eating with you is good and healthy?

I wouldn't say, today, "please may I get down from the table" to DH b ut I might well say, if he was still eating or finishing a chat with the DC, "Do you mind if I nip off and get that load of washing done as I need to be out the door in 15 minutes". I'm not really asking for permission and I'd be horrified and shocked if he said, "No, stay here", but it's just a polite, adult way of acknowledging that leaving the table early is not really polite but that I need/want to do it in this instance.

I try and get my DC to say please may I leave the table DS 10 has ADHD and I wouldn't expect him to wait for everyone else to finish, he'd find it stressful and then he wouldn't be able to stop himself rocking the table, for example.

I think everyone has different rules though. My children are very polite but I have never taught them to ask to leave the table, I never did and I think it's a bit dated. My friend's children eat with trays in the living room but are lovely, polite children. To me others things are more important but to you they might not be so important.

YANBU!
My DS will always say thanks for a meal, a lift, whatever and if it's a meal he particularly enjoyed he'll say "Thanks Mam, that was DAYCENT!!" We live in Ireland BTW so that's high praise!
I have always said please and thank you to him as well as everyone else, too; him, DH, friends, shop assistants, everyone. Politeness costs nothing but can sure make people feel that bit appreciated!

Please and thank you are important.

I’ve never asked to leave a table and wouldn’t expect my children to ask- I think it’s bizarre!
They do take their plate, empty leftovers in the bin and put it in the dishwasher. They take it in turns wiping the table and sweeping the floor- that’s much more helpful than them asking to leave.