Manners - am I living in the past?

[NellyDElephant]

AIBU to expect my children to say, at the very minimum, thank you for dinner, please may I leave the table? Or something along those lines, after they have finished the meal I have just made them, straight after coming home from a long day at work?
Children are 7, 10, 12, 13.
Surely I’m not expecting the impossible here? Or am I living in the past and trying to help them to have the same manners I was expected to have at that age is just not going to happen?
12yr old is my DSD and it is evident these rules are not in place at her DM’s house - as there’s no evidence of any manners displayed here either. Now I’m questioning whether I’m BU!

@NellyDElephant

Tonight’s example has just illustrated it all really. They were all called down for dinner, together, DSD finished first, got up, put her empty plate by the sink and left the kitchen without a word. My children were still eating, and when they had finished, asked to leave the table, and said thank you for dinner. It grates on me every time, but it’s clear these manners are not being pushed/insisted upon at DSD’s Mum’s house. (DSD lives with us during week and sees DM EOW, her younger sister does the opposite, lives with DM during week and sees us EOW - their weekends are together at either household. Her manners are no better, we have to give constant reminders of ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ when she’s here too. I can’t blame them at all - they just haven’t been taught)

Wondering if I’m a dinosaur though! Or just evil stepmother? Or both?!

Why do you not just say Excuse me (dsd) we haven't finished yet? Come and sit back down.

I’ve never heard of anyone asking permission to leave the table apart from in Victorian films.

Although most houses don’t have dinner tables so it probably died out when homes got smaller.

My kids are very polite (generally) as I've drilled into them the importance of it, but every time (for instance) they say thank you for the lovely meal to my MIL she loses it afterwards with me and DP that they shouldn't say thanks for what is expected and so on. Drives me nuts. Of course they should. She has cooked for them.

Why didn't you tell her not to leave the table?

Why does it matter so much to you?

Although most houses don’t have dinner tables so it probably died out when homes got smaller.

Most houses? Really?

So, just ask her to please sit down until the rest of you have finished?
You sound pretty controlling and like you don't have too high an opinion of your DSD.
I'd be working on including her within the family dynamic, rather than concentrating on the 'otherness'.
Is she generally a good kid? If so, cut her some slack. Having 2 homes isn't quite as much fun as it sounds.

Also, have I read that properly - she’s only at her mums house two days out of fourteen? Surely it’s her fathers fault that she’s not doing as she’s asked then?

I must be really honest here and say , without a word of a lie, everyone in my house ALWAYS says thanks to the person who had made their meal. Every single night. Whether it’s bolognese, toast and beans, or a Christmas feast, they always say thank you. And so do I if someone else cooks for me. So no, yanbu. Manners cost nothing.

@TheGoldenWolfFleece

Very outdated to ask permission to leave the table imo.

Absolutely ridiculous. Thank you yes but thats a bit much.

Manners are important but by 12/13 they should be behaving similarly to the adults, it seems strange for a child of that age to be asking permission to leave the table.

By that age I'd expect them to know that they don't just leave when everyone else is still eating. If she needs to leave early then I'd assume it was for some legitimate reason (not just because she's fed up) and that she'd just say "excuse me" or something, not to ask permission.

Another thing to consider is she might be seeing it as a power trip and be feeling resentful/ rebellious about it. You have to take the time to explain to her the reasons why manners are important to you and not just expect blind compliance.

@Wendybyrdesmissingconscience

It’s vital to keep encouraging manners. The number of times I hear young people saying “can I get” in a shop, with no please, thank you, kiss my arse or anything, drive me mad.

Not just young people. It began with Friends. That's fiftysomethings who have been influenced by that

My kids say please, thank you, they thank me for dinner etc. They don't tend to ask to leave the table because they don't leave it until everyone has finished and we are all leaving the table, if you see what I mean.

I would just ask her to sit down until everyone has finished. Doesn't have to be a big thing- children are quite capable of understanding that different people have different rules. I would try to avoid thinking of it as you versus her mum as that isn't relevant or helpful.

@WonderfulYou

YABU I find it very controlling when adults make children ask permission for every small thing. A parents’ job is to feed their children - it shouldn’t come with conditions that they must thank them for doing it, you’re not doing them a favour you’re literally doing your job.

However most of the time myself and my child will say thanks when receiving the food but never afterwards as well unless we are a guest at someone else’s house.

Yes I'm inclined to agree with this really.

Manners are important, but it becomes a weird power dynamic when children are expected to be submissive and thankful and ask permission for every little thing.

You brought them into the world, they didn't choose to be here, so obviously you have to feed them. Do they really have to be thankful for that?

I suppose it’s quite hard to convey the full situation from two posts on MN. I love both my DSD and I love my DC - we try so hard to treat them all in a fair and equal manner, they all have a great (and probably pretty privileged) life, where every need is met, every possible need is anticipated, and we try very hard to make sure they are clothed, catered for and cared for.
All I’d like is some manners, a thank you here and there, perhaps a couple of sentences spoken to us. If I ask “how was your day?” Instead of “fine” or “good” I’d love a “it was good thanks, how was yours?” Or again, am I expecting too much?

To the previous questions, DSD has been living with us, with this childcare arrangement, for just over a year now.

@NellyDElephant

I suppose it’s quite hard to convey the full situation from two posts on MN. I love both my DSD and I love my DC - we try so hard to treat them all in a fair and equal manner, they all have a great (and probably pretty privileged) life, where every need is met, every possible need is anticipated, and we try very hard to make sure they are clothed, catered for and cared for. All I’d like is some manners, a thank you here and there, perhaps a couple of sentences spoken to us. If I ask “how was your day?” Instead of “fine” or “good” I’d love a “it was good thanks, how was yours?” Or again, am I expecting too much?

To the previous questions, DSD has been living with us, with this childcare arrangement, for just over a year now.

And what does her father think?

I’d take one heartfelt “Thanks mum, that was yum” over a fortnight of drilled platitudes.

@NellyDElephant how long has this arrangement been in place? Is your DSD generally quite quiet/sullen? How does she get on with your children?

I dont think you're a dinosaur or and evil stepmother. Manners have to be taught.

Does your DP say thank you or does he leave the table without a word too? He should really be the one enforcing manners IMO

Her DF is still at work during children’s mealtimes. So it’s just on me.
I either mention it to her at the time, and get the ‘look’ from her, or mention it to him when he’s home from work and look like I’m stirring the pot, I suppose. I don’t want to be the evil SM! But equally, I want polite DSC and DC

You're very reasonable to expect and want consideration and respect. But I think YABU to call for this in the way you've suggested.

Personally, I cringe when anyone - child, spouse, relative, guest - thanks me for the food I've cooked for them. It's food, everyone and anyone is welcome to it. I do a weekly shop for our food bank, we contribute to our school's free lunch scheme. Access to food is a basic human right.

However, I LOVE it when anyone says they're enjoying the food I prepared!

I cannot fathom asking permission to get off a chair. What's the alternative?!

Equally, I cannot fathom someone getting up from the table when others are still eating. Very rude.

Separately, I've noticed that the British are totally hung up on etiquette in a way the rest of the world really isn't. All cultures value respect and consideration (because all humans do). This manifests as manners, and is good. Etiquette is sometimes rooted in manners, but oftentimes in a deliberate effort to show social standing/class. I have no time for that.

@NellyDElephant

Her DF is still at work during children’s mealtimes. So it’s just on me. I either mention it to her at the time, and get the ‘look’ from her, or mention it to him when he’s home from work and look like I’m stirring the pot, I suppose. I don’t want to be the evil SM! But equally, I want polite DSC and DC

He never, ever eats with her?

I would never expect my children to ask to leave the table, very old fashioned, I’m in my 40’s and have never asked to leave a table in my life.

I do expect please and thanks yous though.

@NellyDElephant

Her DF is still at work during children’s mealtimes. So it’s just on me. I either mention it to her at the time, and get the ‘look’ from her, or mention it to him when he’s home from work and look like I’m stirring the pot, I suppose. I don’t want to be the evil SM! But equally, I want polite DSC and DC

So your husband supports his daughter being a rude madam, and treating you like a skivvy.

You have a husband problem.

She gives you a look.

Let him cook for his child whenever he swans in.

I wouldn't tolerate this from anyone, certainly not a teen.

Both your husband and his children are treating you like the help.

Hand over feeding HIS kids to HIM and see how long he thinks you are stirring the pot.

Another waster father leaving the rearing of HIS children to his second wife.

Stand up for yourself.
You are NOT wrong.

Thanking someone for the meal they have provided is well beyond basic manners.

I like to think I have good manners but also find this quite controlling and unnecessary actually. Yes to please and thank you, yes to staying at the table until everyone has finished but not asking to be excused. When my DC comment on a meal, I know they've really enjoyed it and not something they say at every meal regardless. It all becomes a bit meaningless and your DSD might be a bit keener to chat with you about your day if you eased up a bit on this sort of thing.

No you’re not, we have taught our DD’s to say please and thank you, may I leave the table, if you’re offered something you can decline it nicely, etc. we get compliments from people about how polite they are.

Most of their friends I end up silently seething when kids come round and demand things /food, never say thank you and say “ergh, I hate x” when offered. Seems some people don’t care anymore.