Manners - am I living in the past?

[NellyDElephant]

AIBU to expect my children to say, at the very minimum, thank you for dinner, please may I leave the table? Or something along those lines, after they have finished the meal I have just made them, straight after coming home from a long day at work?
Children are 7, 10, 12, 13.
Surely I’m not expecting the impossible here? Or am I living in the past and trying to help them to have the same manners I was expected to have at that age is just not going to happen?
12yr old is my DSD and it is evident these rules are not in place at her DM’s house - as there’s no evidence of any manners displayed here either. Now I’m questioning whether I’m BU!

Please & thank you are only natural at the dinner table.

Asking permission to leave sounds draconian & overly formal to me, although it must a cultural thing because in my 38 years (rural Ireland) I’ve never heard of that.

Perhaps your step children don't feel comfortable sitting at the table with you, it all sounds a bit intense for a step child. So glad I never had a stepmother!!!

this asking to leave the table is quite a class-based thing.
not entirely of course, but largely so.
i had never heard off it growing up, being working class.
maybe your SD does not want to seem disloyal to her mother by taking on customs that would seem foreign to her.

@waterlego
Yes, you are right that you can insist in both being considerate and helpful and using certain phrases to convey sentiment. I feel though that some people prioritise the set phrases or feel that simply saying them makes someone polite and forget about the rest, appearing false. Maybe that's why I instinctively feel wary of this type of politeness, when possibly I shouldn't.
The OP also said she would prefer to be asked how she was after asking her children. In my mind this might sound like you are teaching children to be considerate, when in reality it creates a situation where people ask and answer, but don't really mean it or are interested in the reply. When something is heartfelt it means more, but again as you say, you can do both, it's just that some people stop at the words but don't convey the rest.

I think manners have changed over the years / asking to the leave the table is very odd imo. You don’t do it as an adult - why would kids do it? Thanks Lear and Thankyou are always required.

I insist on good manners, please and thank you etc. But I have to prompt my 6yo every time, she never ever says it without me saying "what do you say?". It really gets me down as her school friends are all so polite, I find it incredibly embarrassing.

@alexdgr8 working class girl here. Child of the 70s of Irish mother and English father. We always had to ask to leave the table. I’ve never had my children say this as I said upthread, they stay until everyone is finished. I suppose if they had something urgent to do they’d just excuse themselves some other polite way.

@givethatbabyaname I can’t imagine not thinking someone for something they have given me.

We didn’t make our Dds ask permission, however we all sat and chatted and got up together to clear the table. If they needed to rush off they did ask if it was ok, but not using the phrase “please May I leave..”. Because I had to say it as a child and hated it!

I think manners have changed over the years / asking to the leave the table is very odd imo. You don’t do it as an adult - why would kids do

I suppose kids might want to leave the table while adults are still talking. Adults obviously don’t ask as they’re adults but also they’re never going to leave the table before everyone has finished both eating and talking.

My almost three year old usually says please and thank you, sometimes she forgets but a look usually sorts that out. A lot of people are surprised at her manners though, we’ve been to a few restaurants recently (just pub chain types, nothing fancy!) and she’s said thank you when the staff brought her dinner without prompting (she’s a bit shy so isn’t always as good at thank yous with strangers) and they’ve been really surprised, so clearly it’s not the norm! Asking to get down from the table isn’t really a thing in our family, we all just wait until everyone has finished and leave the table together.

I suppose kids might want to leave the table while adults are still talking. Adults obviously don’t ask as they’re adults but also they’re never going to leave the table before everyone has finished both eating and talking.

I don't think that's true, all of the adults I know do get up (and usually start cleaning up) while others are still eating and don't consider it rude. There's no specific reason why you have to wait until the end, except tradition.

Please may I leave the table works when you’re a young child, as they may not have eaten all their meal or know to stay etc. so I think it’s logical for a little one to ask.

But as said past the age of about six, then I think it’s prudent to teach a child correct manners, to know when to finish when to leave and to say excuse me.

Asking a twelve thirteen year old to ask if they can please leave the table I don’t think is good, it’s infantilising them.

One thing I noticed about my fiance when I first met him is his impeccable manners. We still say thankyou when we do things for each other. It comes naturally. It's why we have such a great relationship. It does matter. I taught my kids the same.

I haven't taught my kids about please leave the table. They say thanks though and take plates. Please leave the table wasn't something I did as a child either. However a child at a party did and missed the whole party sat at the table because no adult cake close enough for her to ask to be excused. That was enough for me to think this is unnecessary

all of the adults I know do get up (and usually start cleaning up) while others are still eating and don't consider it rude

Not in my world.
An adult getting up and clearing their plate when others haven’t finished would be seen as rude.
Never seen that happening in my family, DH, friends let alone any work environment.

@MananaTomorrow

Fair enough, but know that that's not universal!

I'm not at all bothered by people getting up from the table while others are still eating, I've always had close families where this was not a formal event and the only time we had a proper conversation, we talked and spent time with each other all the time.

In fact I'd prefer not to be watched eating, and not to watch others eat.

I’m hot on manners, and what really gets on my nerves is that DH abandons his as soon as (adult) DSD is here. Usually he is polite and civilised, but when it’s the three of us he picks food up with his hands like she does, they talk with their mouth full, and when they want something they point at it making straining noises rather than asking for it. It’s bizarre.

I don't have children but was taught these table and other social manners by my parents and they have been very helpful to me throughout life. I am sorry for those children of today who find themselves eventually at a more formal meal at university, workplace or other and find themselves making social errors because they have never been taught table manners nor how to sit politely and listen to others and take turns in conversation. These are life skills and help their social confidence in situations outside their own home. In addition, they learn the art of patience and being considerate of others.

Please, thank you etc., of course.
Never required the leaving the table thing because we wouldn’t expect it from adults. Meals just seemed to naturally conclude anyway, when everyone had finished.

@aSofaNearYou That’s interesting- I’ve never known an adult do that and in my world it would be seen as extremely rude. Different perhaps if it was work canteen or similar where people come and go and are on a tight schedule, but at home- never.

[quote WelcomeHere]@aSofaNearYou That’s interesting- I’ve never known an adult do that and in my world it would be seen as extremely rude. Different perhaps if it was work canteen or similar where people come and go and are on a tight schedule, but at home- never.[/quote]
Yep, a few people have said that, but you'll notice equal if not more have said they don't do this as an adult or child so it's clearly not something everyone does!

Everyone in my circle just gets up when they've finished, cleans up, then regathers in the living room to continue spending time together.

There's no inherent formality about mealtime, you just sit and eat, thank the chef, then clean up. Why does it need to be more formal than that?

We’re big on manners here and it’s hard with the step kids because they don’t have it enforced at home. With all the kids, they’re not allowed to interrupt when we’re talking (emergencies aside) and have to wait for a natural pause in the conversation. I think it’s just good preparation for adult life to not be shouting over one another.

Mine always thank me for dinner (when they're here, they're adults), but we don't eat at the table and haven't for years so that doesn't apply. They are expected to take their plates to the kitchen when done and offer to take other people's plates if they finish at the same time. There isn't a single correct way of managing courtesy.

@aSofaNearYou I suppose I see it as social/family time rather than just about eating. But primarily it’s just different conventions- in my house it would be very rude, in yours it wouldn’t. I suppose this is what OP is experiencing in finding that her step-children’s mother has a different approach to hers. I think children are pretty good generally at understanding different houses have different rules, as long as it’s made clear.