Manners - am I living in the past?

[NellyDElephant]

AIBU to expect my children to say, at the very minimum, thank you for dinner, please may I leave the table? Or something along those lines, after they have finished the meal I have just made them, straight after coming home from a long day at work?
Children are 7, 10, 12, 13.
Surely I’m not expecting the impossible here? Or am I living in the past and trying to help them to have the same manners I was expected to have at that age is just not going to happen?
12yr old is my DSD and it is evident these rules are not in place at her DM’s house - as there’s no evidence of any manners displayed here either. Now I’m questioning whether I’m BU!

Asking to leave the table is about teaching children that meal times / eating together is not just about eating and leaving - it’s also about engaging and talking. Asking to leave is ‘has my part in the proceedings (for want of a better word) ended as I am small and want to go and do other things whilst you adults carry on talking’. Learning that it’s good manners to sit and engage until such a time is not such a bad skill. I always asked (until about 13 when I would want to sit and chat or dinner came to a natural end) and remind children to ask. I wouldn’t dream of not thanking whoever cooked.

All other table manners (the correct way to hold cutlery, placing napkins, not leaning over the table or someone’s plate to get to a dish, elbows off, fork to face not face to fork, finishing your mouthful before reloading fork etc) drilled into me and I’m bloody grateful for it.

YANBU OP.

YANBU. My DS is 2 and I’m saying this to him already - I’ll be insisting on it when he’s old enough.

Keep doing it, and make sure DH backs you up!

You're definitely doing the right thing imo.

Not having manners just makes people look very ignorant and uneducated.

Ot sounds like your sd is not crazy about you or the situation, she's still very young

@Fairylightsongs

I think please and thank you yes, but not please can I leave the table, simply it’s polite to wait till thr last person has finished and if you need to leave before just say, that was lovely and excuse me.

This! Is this an English thing? Why would anyone have to ask to leave the table?

Are you raising autonomous children or robots?

Would you or your DH ask to leave the table? If so, plough on with the kids but if neither of you would then it's unreasonable to expect it of the DC.
I'm all for manners, but my house is not the army.

Goodness me,some parents here truely live in victorian times "I drill manners into my kids",what a horrid way to bring up children.there is a sensible middle ground in regards to manners.demanding a thank you from a child for a cooked meal by mum is just totally over the top.does the child also have to say thanks when mum or dad hoovers?washes clothes?irons?

@NellyDElephant

Tonight’s example has just illustrated it all really. They were all called down for dinner, together, DSD finished first, got up, put her empty plate by the sink and left the kitchen without a word. My children were still eating, and when they had finished, asked to leave the table, and said thank you for dinner. It grates on me every time, but it’s clear these manners are not being pushed/insisted upon at DSD’s Mum’s house. (DSD lives with us during week and sees DM EOW, her younger sister does the opposite, lives with DM during week and sees us EOW - their weekends are together at either household. Her manners are no better, we have to give constant reminders of ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ when she’s here too. I can’t blame them at all - they just haven’t been taught)

Wondering if I’m a dinosaur though! Or just evil stepmother? Or both?!

Jesus pick your battles

Mines have alway Ben expected to stay at the table until everyone has finished!!

They don’t say thank you though. Probably because no one else is doing it either….

Btw, if your dad stays with you more or less all the time, then her behaviour is down to you/your DH, not her mum.

Why are you not pulling her up on it? Your house isn’t like the canteen!

As some previous posters have said, for the future, I think it’s important that the DC & DSC have an awareness of how to behave at the table, hold cutlery in the correct hands, elbows off the table, don’t talk with mouth full of food, say please and thank you, and either stay at the table until everyone is finished, or ask to be excused. I’d think I’ve failed as a parent (and step-parent) if I didn’t at least convey this - repeatedly - until it sinks in!
I don’t want to upset DSD, let’s face it 12 going on 13 is a tricky age anyway, she’s sulky and non-communicative and stroppy at the best of times, as is my DD ( who is less than a year older) so I know what to expect on this front - but to me, manners are non-negotiable. Trying to work out how to approach this, in a nice way. Any ideas?

@Maybe83

Please and thank you yes. Not permission to leave the table. I dont view that as manners but control. I dont need them to sit at the table for me to finish my meal. If they are finished first they can go and do what ever it was before we sat down.

If we are at a restaurant they don't leave until we all do at home I don't expect the same.

Agree with this.

@Chuechebache

Goodness me,some parents here truely live in victorian times "I drill manners into my kids",what a horrid way to bring up children.there is a sensible middle ground in regards to manners.demanding a thank you from a child for a cooked meal by mum is just totally over the top.does the child also have to say thanks when mum or dad hoovers?washes clothes?irons?

‘Thanks for dinner’ is not exactly a big ask. My parents used to say it to me when I cooked as a teen and still do now.

Dd is very well mannered and people are always commenting when we are out how good and pleasant she is. We don't even own a table 🤷‍♀️. A thank you is nice, but it's better when you know it's genuine rather than obligatory.

Please and thank you, absolutely. Asking to leave the table? That seems OTT. Though at least you aren't insisting on "please may I get down" which must be the most cringeworthy phrase in the English language.

This issue seems less about manners than about your relationship with your DSD, though. She's a young girl who evidently rarely sees her parents or her sister (she's with her mother EOW, her father is at work during the week, her sister lives with their mother). It's fine to remind her about politeness, but not in a way that makes her feel singled out. She probably feels a bit like the odd one out as it is.

I expect this from my just 3 year old, it came up at work recently and a colleague told me I was too strict!
He is good with please and thank you, without being reminded now, nursery have even commented. It's really not hard work and most of it is just doing it yourself, he almost reflexively says you're welcome if someone thanks him for something, probably because I always do it with him.
He doesn't take his plate to the kitchen when he's finished because he stills struggles to carry it with the cutlery and not drop something, so he takes his cup and I take his plate

I really dislike this sort of politeness. It has no meaning, it serves no purpose and doesn't help build relationships that are built on mutual respect. It focuses on the words rather than the sentiment.
I prefer to teach my children about considering other people's needs and feelings, but also that we will acknowledge theirs. I wouldn't like to be thanked for preparing a meal on a daily basis. I would much rather my children told me if they particularly enjoyed the food, or offered to cook if I'd had a busy day, or simply refrained from complaining if the meal was not something they particularly enjoyed, understanding that it isn't always possible to do more than throw a few things together.
As children turn into teens they should start realising that there are often different ways of doing things based on the occasion, basically to be flexible. Dining with guests often means a different set of rules to just family for example, or if the adults have had a really full week they could help out more.
You can teach children to be polite and appropriate for the occasion without forcing them to do it every day. Learning to notice and look out for the people around you is more important in my opinion than always following a pattern of set phrases.

Why do they need to ask if they can leave the table? I don’t understand.

Thank yous of course. But I don’t get the other stuff. Seems very unnecessary and formal.

Why should young children thank you for making them dinner? It was your decision to have children and therefore provide for them.

Yes, they should ask if they can leave the table if that is what you want them to do. I personally wouldn't.

@LeQuern.my mum was a brilliant cook and when I told her at the end of the meal:mmmh that was yummy,she smiled and knew it was a child saying thanks to mummy in a natural way how children speak.

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

Why should young children thank you for making them dinner? It was your decision to have children and therefore provide for them.

Yes, they should ask if they can leave the table if that is what you want them to do. I personally wouldn't.

This^

I think you need to choose your battles

Why do they need to ask if they can leave the table? I don’t understand.

For me, the issue is that dinner is the one time everyone is around the table and we can all have a chat together. The rest of the time, I have two teen sin their bedroom that never come out. Fo they were eating as quickly as possible and then leaving, we would never see them, or speak to them!

Plus it’s rude, like you are telling the people that you can’t be arsed to stay and speak to them.

Now you might balk at the turn of phrase, find it old fashioned etc… but it would never crossed my mind to just leave before everyone has finished. I mean do you do that when you go and see your parents? Or when you are going to friends/have someone staying for dinner?

Asking to leave the table is about teaching children that meal times / eating together is not just about eating and leaving - it’s also about engaging and talking.

My children (now teens) seem to have learned this just fine without ever being trained to ask to leave the table. We talk over a meal, we finish, sometimes some of us before others. If anyone's got something pressing to do, they might leave the table before others finish, but not usually. The dc normally load the dishwasher (without being asked).

They haven't been trained to say thank you for dinner either. Neither do dh and I say thank you for dinner. We're all fairly often complimentary about the food though. These trained responses seem a bit formal for close family tbh. My dc would say thanks if they were guests at someone else's house.

If I ask “how was your day?” Instead of “fine” or “good” I’d love a “it was good thanks how about yours?

Expecting a “good thanks, how about yours” is centring on yourself and your feelings, not your dsd. You should be genuinely asking about her day. A not yet young teen navigating through life should not naturally be expected to have this awareness of you and your life. My dd is 13. No way would it occur to her. This is a very narcissistic phase developmentally and as teens become self-absorbed, they somewhat lose natural empathy. It does return.

As for getting down from the table, I absolutely disagree with this. I find it triggering and shameful due to my childhood. Saying thank you for the food? No I don’t enforce that either. I did have a word with dd the other day as I was frankly fed up of being taken for granted and of her giving me attitude. Since then she’s become a lot more appreciative and repeatedly said thank you. Tbh I’d rather she thanks me because it comes from her and she has taken a step back and decided for herself she should be grateful. This way the impetus comes from her rather than having learned to repeat a mantra.

@wishtotravel

I really dislike this sort of politeness. It has no meaning, it serves no purpose and doesn't help build relationships that are built on mutual respect. It focuses on the words rather than the sentiment. I prefer to teach my children about considering other people's needs and feelings, but also that we will acknowledge theirs. I wouldn't like to be thanked for preparing a meal on a daily basis. I would much rather my children told me if they particularly enjoyed the food, or offered to cook if I'd had a busy day, or simply refrained from complaining if the meal was not something they particularly enjoyed, understanding that it isn't always possible to do more than throw a few things together. As children turn into teens they should start realising that there are often different ways of doing things based on the occasion, basically to be flexible. Dining with guests often means a different set of rules to just family for example, or if the adults have had a really full week they could help out more. You can teach children to be polite and appropriate for the occasion without forcing them to do it every day. Learning to notice and look out for the people around you is more important in my opinion than always following a pattern of set phrases.

Yes, that’s all important too. Happy to say my teenagers have good empathy and do all those things.

When they were little, they were encouraged to ask if they wanted to leave the table and to say thank you when someone had made a meal for them. Some here evidently find that ridiculous/twee/formal etc, but it worked for us and now they are considerate teens, who clear up after themselves and take their turn to cook for the family (and yes, we thank them for the meal when they cook, it works both ways!)

A family who have particular routines/expectations/manners around mealtimes can ALSO be considerate and helpful to each other too.