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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Manners - am I living in the past?

221 replies

NellyDElephant · 27/01/2022 18:14

AIBU to expect my children to say, at the very minimum, thank you for dinner, please may I leave the table? Or something along those lines, after they have finished the meal I have just made them, straight after coming home from a long day at work?
Children are 7, 10, 12, 13.
Surely I’m not expecting the impossible here? Or am I living in the past and trying to help them to have the same manners I was expected to have at that age is just not going to happen?
12yr old is my DSD and it is evident these rules are not in place at her DM’s house - as there’s no evidence of any manners displayed here either. Now I’m questioning whether I’m BU!

OP posts:
doesthatmakesense · 27/01/2022 21:54

Clearly how you rate the important of this depends on the context in which you first learnt what was good/bad behaviour: I get v twitchy with my ILs as when a meal is served, even a fairly formal one they just tuck in as soon as their plate is full. In my family everybody waits until the last person is served before eating. It has taken me years to ignore the conditioning, but to me stuffing your face before the last person is served (usually the person who has cooked it all) just feels rude.

Similarly, even if food is a human right, being cooked for is not (well note quite) especially if an effort has been made. In exactly the same way that i think it is good manners to be thankful to the person who does an x-ray for me, or who cleans the loos at work, I think it is good manners to be thankful for somebody having cooked me food. To do otherwise would feel very entitled.
I still excuse myself if I have to leave the table during a meal, because it is a social as well as functional event. We eat around the table a few times a week, and it always feels like a bit of a gathering, so it seems very rude to just walk out.

Merryoldgoat · 27/01/2022 21:55

@MananaTomorrow

A) my parents died when I was in my teens but I was never expected to ask to leave the table. I was grateful, helped clear etc but no, it wasn’t an expectation.

B) if I go to PILs we eat together and when we’re finished we enjoy each other’s company, make tea, clear dishes. No one asks to get up.

C) when I have people for dinner we sit at the table chatting but people are free to get up and move to sofas etc and if they asked permission I’d think they’d gone mad.

D) my children eat at 5.00. I’m still working often and therefore they eat together. It would be peculiar for them to ask to get up.

LeQuern · 27/01/2022 21:59

[quote Chuechebache]@LeQuern.my mum was a brilliant cook and when I told her at the end of the meal:mmmh that was yummy,she smiled and knew it was a child saying thanks to mummy in a natural way how children speak.[/quote]
Not sure I really understand your point - seems we agree as your ‘mmmm, that was lovely’ was an age appropriate way of saying thanks.

Avarua · 27/01/2022 21:59

My kids have to say "may I please leave the table"
Good manners cost nothing

LeQuern · 27/01/2022 22:01

‘Thanks for dinner mum / dad / sibling / whoever cooked’ is hardly formal.

Mummyoflittledragon · 27/01/2022 22:01

I totally agree with @crazyjinglist and @wishtotravel. All very good points. It is far more important to be flexible and fit in in a wide variety of places than to stick rigidly to rules.

If you want your dsd to stay at the table, it would be much kinder to gently explain you’d all really like her to stay and chat with her as a family all together until you’ve all finished. I think the outdated rules are a barrier rather than a good boundary and it is likely she has difficulty with them, running away rather than be faced with them.

FangsForTheMemory · 27/01/2022 22:02

I was 14 before I dared get down from the table without asking. No I don't think you're unreasonable, but many parents let their kids run riot.

LynetteScavo · 27/01/2022 22:11

YANBU - my DC always, always say "thank you for my lively lunch, please may I get down" Even if we've had a huge argument over lunch. They are older teens. It's been Drilled into them since they were in their high chair.

They should also shove their plate in the dishwasher, whether at home or at a friends.

Just repeat what is expected of them. Eventually guests and step children will get it.

LeQuern · 27/01/2022 22:14

@Mummyoflittledragon gently explaining to a kid you’d like them to stay at the table and chat as a family is what is meant by modelling good manners and instilling them in a child.

I don’t think those of us who like children to ask are tying them to chairs and sticking forks in them!

DysmalRadius · 27/01/2022 22:20

@LeQuern

Asking to leave the table is about teaching children that meal times / eating together is not just about eating and leaving - it’s also about engaging and talking. Asking to leave is ‘has my part in the proceedings (for want of a better word) ended as I am small and want to go and do other things whilst you adults carry on talking’. Learning that it’s good manners to sit and engage until such a time is not such a bad skill. I always asked (until about 13 when I would want to sit and chat or dinner came to a natural end) and remind children to ask. I wouldn’t dream of not thanking whoever cooked.

All other table manners (the correct way to hold cutlery, placing napkins, not leaning over the table or someone’s plate to get to a dish, elbows off, fork to face not face to fork, finishing your mouthful before reloading fork etc) drilled into me and I’m bloody grateful for it.

YANBU OP.

But that is personal preference, not universal good manners like chewing with your mouth closed (and even that is cultural). I spend most of the day with my kids, engaging and talking, so mealtimes don't hold that sort of significance. As a child I was expected to ask to leave the table, but I have no idea why, so it obviously wasn't a learning experience for me (apart from teaching me that I didn't want to inflict that on my kids, in retrospect!).

Holding cutlery in a particular way serves no purpose, not leaning over someone else is common courtesy at any time, not just the table, finishing your mouthful is a new one to me, but it does seem pointless and suggests that some people at the table are paying more attention to what others are doing than 'engaging and talking' is they are policing when someone else's mouth is empty!

But I really appreciate your answer as, although it confirms that this is not the way I want to do things in my house because there is no need, I can see why it is important to others, so I will continue to expect my kids to take their lead from me when we are with others and behave however the occasion dictates!

headintheproverbial · 27/01/2022 22:26

Yes we have 'please may I leave the table'. At one point our child minder had taught them also say 'thank you for lovely
Meal' but I just felt that was forced. I do encourage them to say thank you tho!

Fairylightsongs · 27/01/2022 22:34

Op, honestly this is your step child you take issue with, I’d let her parents deal with it. If you’re not happy, please speak to them.

aSofaNearYou · 27/01/2022 22:35

I think a thankyou should be a given but the asking to leave the table thing can be quite alien when you haven't been raised that way because I don't think it's standard anymore.

That said, if she lives with you most of the time it shouldn't be that hard to teach. Personally I would let go of that and just focus on encouraging thankyou's.

funnelfanjo · 27/01/2022 22:37

Personally, I cringe when anyone - child, spouse, relative, guest - thanks me for the food I've cooked for them. It's food, everyone and anyone is welcome to it. I do a weekly shop for our food bank, we contribute to our school's free lunch scheme. Access to food is a basic human right
Surely they are also showing appreciation for the time and effort you have made in buying and preparing the food for them to eat. Most societies have some form of etiquette in showing appreciation for being provided food, it’s a fairly universal human experience.

I remember my mum pointedly telling me when I was a teenager how much it meant to her for us to say thanks. I think it was the first time I realised that she wasn’t just “mum” but a human being with the full range of feelings that humans have.

funnelfanjo · 27/01/2022 22:38

Gah, post fail, the first paragraph is a quote from a pp.

interferingma · 27/01/2022 22:43

@FangsForTheMemory

I was 14 before I dared get down from the table without asking. No I don't think you're unreasonable, but many parents let their kids run riot.
I hardly think failing to ask to leave the table constitutes running riot.
saraclara · 27/01/2022 22:43

@TheGoldenWolfFleece

Very outdated to ask permission to leave the table imo.
Yep. My kids knew they had to wait until everyone else had finished, but I've always hated the ritual, meaningless "canileavethetableplease"

If they had something to do or somewhere to go, of course they'd ask if they could get down, but otherwise we finished and cleared up together, and they always said 'thanks mum' (or dad), or 'that was lovely', or some such.

They didn't have to perform a ritual though. One of my friends trained her kids to say ""thank you for my lovely food can I leave the table". And that's exactly how they said it. With no meaning behind it whatsoever. Just a string of words that was the key to get down from the table.

At least if my kids said something nice about my or my DH's meal, they meant it..

Fairylightsongs · 27/01/2022 23:05

Op, out of curiousty what do you say when you leave the table? That’s the best thing to teach her.

Personally I’d cringe if I saw a kid her age having to say please may I leave the table, I’d prefer thank you or excuse me. But then maybe you say please may I leave the table too? You won’t be alone, someone actually posted they and their husband ask for permission to leave the table.

But if you don’t ask for permission to leave the table, maybe you should not be asking her to either, I’m sure you don’t want to ask her to do things you would rather not.

Allsorts1 · 27/01/2022 23:13

Making a kid ask to leave the table is a bit creepy in my mind. Just doesn’t sit right with me. Manners should be things that everyone has to do because it’s polite and kind, not about making a kid really submissive/meek or putting them in their place.

Allsorts1 · 27/01/2022 23:19

@NellyDElephant have you tried just chatting to her about it in a relaxed moment? Explaining what it means to you to be thanked? At the end of the day, set rules at dinner times that she doesn’t have to follow at her mums, probably look pretty nonsensical to her - any explanation about “this is how polite girls behave!!” Isn’t really going to make a dent. She’ll just think it’s stupid.

But a heartfelt explanation that it means a lot to you if she can say thanks for your hard work, just like you’ll always thank her when she does something nice for you, MIGHT get through. (But she’s 13 so who knows!)

HighlandPony · 27/01/2022 23:21

There’s manners like please, thank you and excuse me but I find something creepy and controlling about having to ask to leave the table. Sounds Charles dickens to me

DillDanding · 28/01/2022 00:37

Kids being made to say ‘may I leave the table?’ is ridiculous. Ditto being expected to clear your plate. That seems Dickensian and controlling.

In the same way that we’d all sit at a table in a restaurant until we were all done, at home we sit until everyone is done. No one gets up just because they have finished - that’s bad manners.

In this house, the post meal stuff is just ingrained. Everyone clears the table, loads the dishwasher, mills around tidying and putting away. Even when the kids were very small, they got involved in the tidying.

Thebigpawpaw · 28/01/2022 00:57

Oh dear this thread has made me feel like a Neanderthal- we mostly don't even eat at the table let alone ask to leave it Blush.

AffIt · 28/01/2022 01:07

@DillDanding

Kids being made to say ‘may I leave the table?’ is ridiculous. Ditto being expected to clear your plate. That seems Dickensian and controlling.

In the same way that we’d all sit at a table in a restaurant until we were all done, at home we sit until everyone is done. No one gets up just because they have finished - that’s bad manners.

In this house, the post meal stuff is just ingrained. Everyone clears the table, loads the dishwasher, mills around tidying and putting away. Even when the kids were very small, they got involved in the tidying.

Yes, this.

As a child, we were expected to eat what we could round the table and make conversation.

There was no 'may I leave the table?', but you were expected to contribute to the general atmosphere, say thank you to whoever had prepared the food, and help clear up.

givethatbabyaname · 28/01/2022 01:12

Surely they are also showing appreciation for the time and effort you have made in buying and preparing the food for them to eat. Most societies have some form of etiquette in showing appreciation for being provided food, it’s a fairly universal human experience.

I just don’t see it in this way. I’m far from the Earth mother type, and I absolutely know the mundanity of shopping and cooking and meal planning etc. BUT - feeding people? It’s elemental. We can’t live without it. We’ve all been hungry and we all know what it’s like to eat. Feeding people transcends race, culture, gender, politics, age - everything. It’s absolutely basic. What are the alternatives, anyway? Not eat or feed? I don’t want or need appreciation for something like this. 99/100 I get it, though, in some form or another.

I have, separately, engrained in my children in pretty much every other aspect of their lives that I am not their servant or to be taken for granted, that I am a person deserving of being treated as they would any other adult. They know, understand and (by and large, making age appropriate allowances) demonstrate that they get this, by their words and actions.

But food? Never deny a starving man food or a thirsty man water. He’ll thank you for providing it; but never would I want or require it.