Is this maternal enmeshment or AIBU?

[disco82]

Have noticed lots of odd things in the relationship between my bf and his mother, that I have tried to ignore. But am beginning to question if they are unhealthily enmeshed or AIBU? Examples:

1. He has never moved away from home and is late 30s. Has only now put down an offer on a flat but it is down the road from mum.
2. She has never met me in 18 months, and I have never been allowed in their house. He says it's because she is embarrassed of how run down it is. However, one night when she was away, he took me over and the house was absolutely fine. Also she works with clients in the house. We have bumped into her a few times in the town so she does know I'm a gf.
3. Every time he is with me (and she knows), she texts him asking if he will be home for dinner or will be home that night. He says she is just checking he is ok. But I feel insulted she needs to check this when he is with me?
4. She still cooks meals for him and does his laundry. He can do these things himself as he does it when he is with me.
5. He is expected to pay for all house repairs and look after the house and garden.
6. I live alone but he only spends 2 nights a week at mine and the rest at his mums, even though I have invited him to spend more.
7. He once cut short our time together as he wanted to go home to say goodbye to his mum who was going away for the weekend. He didn't think this was an odd thing to do, but to me it felt like something you do for a partner.
8. I have no family in this country and couldn't go home to my parents for Xmas due to Covid rules. On 2 Xmas-es she said I couldn't spend it with them as she didn't know me well enough and Xmas wasn't the right time to get to know me. The first Xmas I accepted this as we had only been dating 6 months, second Xmas I was quite shocked. So he decided to spend Xmas with me instead, but still had to go over to hers for most of the afternoon, even though she had her other family with her, and I was alone.
9. He runs every decision past her, even ones he doesn't talk to me about.
10. He tells her all the details about what we do together/where we go - they have a ritual of going for a walk every evening together.
11. He admitted to me that she wouldn't be that pleased if he got married/had kids but couldn't explain why.
12. There are no photos of him or his brothers anywhere in the house, and he has no idea where they may be. Not sure it means anything but thought it odd given how close they are.
13. She and his dad got divorced 25 years ago but she has never had a partner since - not sure if it is relevant, but i thought maybe that is why they are so close. He also has 2 other brothers and they too have never left home and are in their 30s, but they are not so close to her, and don't contribute to the household expenses like he does.

He is in love with Mummy and you are The Other Woman OP.

We have already had a situation when his mother called him when he was with me to come home and check the alarm system despite both his brothers being home!

Did he go? That should have told you everything, honestly. Save yourself from this mess, OP.

@ChoiceMummy

Your Christmas arrangements though are your issue. Your choice to make him choose between you and his family when he's quite literally dating you. There's no real commitment per se at the 18 months point. And no, I don't think that it reflects poorly on her for not inviting you.

And tbh, until your boyfriend has announced that you are anything beyond a 2 nighter, I wouldn't be taking you home either and tbh, I wouldn't want every possible dalliance over my threshold over!
I genuinely think youre reading way too much into everything and letting it run away...

I am the only relationship he has ever introduced to friends, colleagues or mentioned to his mother. So for him 18 months was a huge, big deal as everyone from his boss to his best friend to his father commented on. At 38, he has also never asked to take a gf to his mothers, neither have his brothers. I think that made it pretty obvious I wasn't a dalliance. You may not consider a 2-nighter serious, but then you aren't him. And his mother needed to consider the needs and wants of her son, and how serious he thought I was. As it turns out, it caused an argument between them that had nothing to do with my feelings, because he felt that the first girl he had ever wanted to invite home should have been made more welcome. So I suppose that says it all about how he felt about the situation.

@grapewine

We have already had a situation when his mother called him when he was with me to come home and check the alarm system despite both his brothers being home!

Did he go? That should have told you everything, honestly. Save yourself from this mess, OP.

He did go....But when we talked about it later, he accepted he should have just asked her to get his brothers to deal with it as he was busy.

[quote WhatDidISayAlan]@ChoiceMummy if you aren’t prepared to set a place at your table for someone who is away from her country and will be alone then I’m bloody glad you’re not my MIL. We’ve had soldier friends of my brother who didn’t have family, a friend of my dad’s who was alone because his kids were at his ex’s all day, and a friend from school who was a cared for child in between fosters. I would not have been able to sleep knowing they were in their own. You obviously have a colder conscience than I.[/quote]
But that was your choice and noone is obligated to do so.

We've done it twice. And it's been shite twice.

@disco82
So I suppose that says it all about how he felt about the situation.
Tbh, I read this as you have been as manipulative as you feel his mum is. And quite probably he'd be swapping one manipulator for another...

It may well be his first serious relationship. But then that alone given your relationship status puts you in very different playing fields. And it's not on equal footing.

Honestly, given your reservations, I'd be moving on.

[quote ChoiceMummy]@disco82
So I suppose that says it all about how he felt about the situation.
Tbh, I read this as you have been as manipulative as you feel his mum is. And quite probably he'd be swapping one manipulator for another...

It may well be his first serious relationship. But then that alone given your relationship status puts you in very different playing fields. And it's not on equal footing.

Honestly, given your reservations, I'd be moving on.[/quote]
Not sure I understand how I've been manipulative? Because he actually wanted to spend his Xmas with his gf rather than his mum? Or because he was annoyed at 38 he wasn't allowed to have a gf over for the first time?

Also, what an odd comment to make about our different relationships statuses? I wasn't aware that we should only be dating people with the exact same relationship experience as us....At his age, he's just plain screwed then isn't he.

Clearly this has really touched a nerve!

Is the mum's house in Royston Vasey?

I'm 60s, divorced a long time and never had another partner (off men for life😏) mother of three sons in 30s youngest still lives with me, next youngest very close and eats here most nights........ so I do object to some of the 'mummy's boy' inferences, however, I would never expect my sons to pay any of my bills. Any girlfriend or boyfriend would be welcome at my house from first date and definitely xmas if they were alone in this country. I would never expect them to prioritise me over their life and would never mither them whilst out with their friends. I might want to know they are safe or what time they were coming home or if they were, but would resist the urge to ask and wait for them to tell me not text whilst they were with their girlfriend.They are adults and entitled to a private life. I feel sorry for your boyfriend and would want to 'save' him and might give it a try with a good talk but having had a dysfunctional family myself I would be very wary of investing in this relationship unless he showed he understood and was willing to break free fully from this dysfunctional relationship.

Spousification (there was a thread about that the other day).

I feel quite sorry for him, I bet he’s a lovely guy who’s been shoved into a very weird role by his mum because of her need for a life partner but reluctance to look for a new one after the divorce.

The not inviting you to xmas when you were alone is shocking. Some people invite strangers to be nice! She’s horrible. I reckon she’s trying to scare you off and is hoping you’ll dump him. Poor guy. Someone needs to rescue from all this, why not you?

Rightly or wrongly there is an interdependence between him and his mother that both of them are happy with and see no need to change. Call it healthy or unhealthy if you wish, but it's apparently what they want since it doesn't appear that he complains about her being 'too needy' or try to 'wean her off' the dependence. The thing is each of us is entitled to order our lives as we see fit. That goes for you as well as them.

If you did try to 'force' change all you'd succeed in doing is making him feel pulled in two directions and guilty about the one he's upsetting, be it you or her. And you'd be miserable if he insisted on more closeness with his mother than you were truly happy with. You might tolerate it, but you'd be resentful. And he'd resent being pulled in two directions or at having to 'cut out' his mother more than he truly wants to. I'd say that would be a recipe for a very, very unhappy life for all three of you.

If it were me, I think I'd just move on. The situation has no easy solution that's going to work and too much room for pain and resentment. A good relationship does take work and compromise, but not that much work and not that much compromise.

@AcrossthePond55

Rightly or wrongly there is an interdependence between him and his mother that both of them are happy with and see no need to change. Call it healthy or unhealthy if you wish, but it's apparently what they want since it doesn't appear that he complains about her being 'too needy' or try to 'wean her off' the dependence. The thing is each of us is entitled to order our lives as we see fit. That goes for you as well as them.

If you did try to 'force' change all you'd succeed in doing is making him feel pulled in two directions and guilty about the one he's upsetting, be it you or her. And you'd be miserable if he insisted on more closeness with his mother than you were truly happy with. You might tolerate it, but you'd be resentful. And he'd resent being pulled in two directions or at having to 'cut out' his mother more than he truly wants to. I'd say that would be a recipe for a very, very unhappy life for all three of you.

If it were me, I think I'd just move on. The situation has no easy solution that's going to work and too much room for pain and resentment. A good relationship does take work and compromise, but not that much work and not that much compromise.

This is really well said. Thank you. I'm feeling really sad atm as I do love him and when it's just us in our bubble, things are great. But it is just our bubble and I have no idea what it will be like if we moved in together, my gut instinct tells me it will be difficult and cause resentment both sides. Because atm his mum is just an unknown entity I don't know that seems to dictate so much of his life, it scares me. My friend has a lot of problems with her MIL and almost called off her wedding as it got so bad, so I'm trying to be cautious but also fair.

All the input here has been very helpful. I'm going to take time to consider it all though the overwhelming opinion is that I should leave. You're all likely right too. Just makes me feel rubbish as it took a while to meet someone I liked as much. He really is the loveliest, kindest man I've met and initially I loved how kind and close he was to his mum. It took a long time to realise that things are much more complicated.

You could take yourselves off to couples counselling to talk it through in an independent supportive environment?

However there is a lot of untangling to be done that two people (him and his DM) don’t see the need for.

You're welcome @disco82

I'm feeling really sad atm as I do love him and when it's just us in our bubble, things are great.

You know, one of the most painful life lessons I had to learn is that love does NOT 'conquer all' and that we can love someone to distraction but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are right or healthy for us.

But I also learned that if we have the courage to let go of the unhealthy things in our lives there's usually something new waiting right around the corner for us. It may not be what we expect to find, but it can be just what we need.

Run, my dear, run. I have a feeling you won’t want someone like her as a mother in law.

@AcrossthePond55 is absolutely right - there is no indication at all that he is unhappy with the set-up. So why would he change?

He won’t. He doesn’t see a need to. He doesn’t want to.

So either you make your peace with it because ‘you love him’.

Or you decide you’re more important than him, and make decisions based on that.

Watch what he does not what he says. He and his mum have a relationship dynamic that is making you uncomfortable. It won't be easy to change the set patterns. He may be completely naive and appear honest and troubled by the issues but if you decide to stay, watch what he does when push comes to shove, not what he says before or after. He ultimately went to see her, it doesn't matter what he says before or after.

I wonder if she would ramp up the neediness in your hour of need. So for example if you were ill and needed looking after for a little while or broke a limb and needed him to fetch and carry or had a problem at work or with your family and needed practical and emotional support or if you had a child with him and had a difficult birth then the early days of broken sleep or evenings with a narky baby who wants cluster feeding at a time that coincides with the evening walk. Would she suddenly be ill-er, or have a house problem more pressing that requires him (not his brothers) to leave you struggling and run to her.
Ditto financially- if you suggested the two of you putting in money for something to benefit you as a couple- booking a holiday, say- would her house suddenly develop an expensive problem that needed fixed right now?

Not saying you should break an arm to test him but I'm sure you could think of a little experiment.

@powershowerforanhour

I wonder if she would ramp up the neediness in your hour of need. So for example if you were ill and needed looking after for a little while or broke a limb and needed him to fetch and carry or had a problem at work or with your family and needed practical and emotional support or if you had a child with him and had a difficult birth then the early days of broken sleep or evenings with a narky baby who wants cluster feeding at a time that coincides with the evening walk. Would she suddenly be ill-er, or have a house problem more pressing that requires him (not his brothers) to leave you struggling and run to her. Ditto financially- if you suggested the two of you putting in money for something to benefit you as a couple- booking a holiday, say- would her house suddenly develop an expensive problem that needed fixed right now?

Not saying you should break an arm to test him but I'm sure you could think of a little experiment.

Oh you mean more manipulation?

@disco82 emotional incest (what his mum seems to be doing/have done his whole life) is a form of emotional abuse that is very difficult for a child to become disentangled from. This isn't just a case of a "mummy's boy". Look it up and do some reading on it to see if it fits the bill and to understand what it may mean for your relationship and your DP.

I have a friend who was raised this way and it has really messed her up but she doesn't see it and I don't have the heart to tell her "there's a term for what your dad did to you..." she just thinks it's a normal / very close relationship...

The messaging to see if he's coming home or not I wouldn't have a problem with because she would need to know whether to cook for him and to lock the door overnight.
Your bf has taken on his father's role, probably happened gradually over time. And now it's been a while it's hard to change that instantly. He needs to be making the effort to break away. But you also need to be aware that she is going to be the type of mother in law that is very very involved and will always be his number 1. Are you OK with this? What about when she is elderly or needs care? I can garentee that she will be coming to live with you

@ChoiceMummy

I wouldn't call 18 months in and a 2 night a weeker a longterm girlfriend. Girlfriend yes, but that's it.

I also don't think that anyone should have to have anyone over at Christmas that they don't know.

We've endured this twice and you know what it's shit as it feels uncomfortable and noone should HAVE to feel that way. Great if someone chooses it.

You sound as though it wouldn't matter what she or he does, you wouldn't approve and would read negative things into. In that case, I think its fairer to him that you run now.

Hello, OP's b/f's mummy ...

If he was a teenager saving for a flat or something, possibly but still a little OTT. But in his 30’s? A little odd.

That said, I am sure every woman runs when they realise how close he is to his mother. If you live him, see if you can change him. Don’t spend too long on this. Be blunt because someone has to say it( but in a good way iyswim) eg.- if you ever want marriage and kids you need to cut the cord before it’s too late.

If he goes, he goes. Job done.

Your Christmas arrangements though are your issue. Your choice to make him choose between you and his family when he's quite literally dating you. There's no real commitment per se at the 18 months point. And no, I don't think that it reflects poorly on her for not inviting you.
OP herself said she accepted it for the first xmas, when Mummy's reasoning was that she didn't know her well enough.
By the second xmas, Mummy had spent a year refusing to meet OP, making a neat self-fulfilling prophecy to keep her excluded.

And tbh, until your boyfriend has announced that you are anything beyond a 2 nighter, I wouldn't be taking you home either and tbh, I wouldn't want every possible dalliance over my threshold over!
Aren't you the charmer!
B/f has announced OP is more than a "dalliance" - you surely can't have missed that fact that they are discussing co-habitation?

I genuinely think youre reading way too much into everything and letting it run away...
I'm sure you have your reasons for thinking so, & yet 400 alarmed PP disagree with you @ChoiceMummy ...

“ We have already had a situation when his mother called him when he was with me to come home and check the alarm system despite both his brothers being home! ”

This jumped out at me. His mother is basically interrupting his time with you, and shouting ‘hi, I’m is number one woman, don’t forget I’m here’. Then almost testing him by saying that she needs help, even though she doesn’t as his (older?) brothers were at home also. He then succumbs to her will and runs to her. (Was the alarm faulty?).

He puts her needs above time with you. He didn’t need to leave then. He could have looked at the alarm later, or a brother look at it.