Being automatically referred to as 'Mrs' on the basis of .. what?!

[Tailsyflugbun]

To expect a telephone receptionist to not assume I am married?!

My MIL always corrects them… it’s professor.

Oh how I wish I was a professor to do that 😂

'Feminist diatribe'. Oxymoron (ic). @ButtockUp

It’s a courtesy thing. Unless there is information immediately available to the contrary that you prefer a different title or are being addressed in the context of a professional role that brings another title.

You wouldn’t assume a male name would be Master XYZ.

mydog but Mrs and Ms are short forms of the SAME WORD.

I'm married and I don't care what people call me. My marital status is none of their business and nor does it affect my dealings with them. I don't feel the need to announce to everyone I deal with that I am married. Why should I? It dosn't make me a better person. I didn't suddenly change character/status etc etc the moment I got married.

As I said above, you can use whichever title you like. 'Mrs' does not have any legal status - any adult woman can call themselves that.

@AnnieLobeseder

Mrs is a 'courtesy title'?!?! So, being a Mrs, ie, legally attached to a man, is something women should aspire to and accept it as a compliment to be addressed as Mrs when they're not married?

Good grief, we really are still in the dark ages.

I'm married. I DO NOT use Mrs, and feel ongoing horror that in our society unmarried women have the same title as children, and don't get recognised as adults until they are validated by a man. And worse, that most women don't seem to mind this at all, and are really really proud when they do finally get 'validated' and get to call themselves Mrs. Have you no worth of your own?

OP, I'd have been just as annoyed as you.

This ^^ is exactly how I feel. Until we take our own names as seriously as men the patriarchy will continue to thrive.

@scottishnames

mydog but Mrs and Ms are short forms of the SAME WORD.

I'm married and I don't care what people call me. My marital status is none of their business and nor does it affect my dealings with them. I don't feel the need to announce to everyone I deal with that I am married. Why should I? It dosn't make me a better person. I didn't suddenly change character/status etc etc the moment I got married.

As I said above, you can use whichever title you like. 'Mrs' does not have any legal status - any adult woman can call themselves that.

Women asking that the default isn't 'Mrs' has got nothing to do with 'legal' status.

(In saying that, it's worth remembering that discrimination against women seeking to obtain goods, facilities or services, including loans or credit, was only outlawed in 1975: for context, I was born in 1979.

There are plenty of women alive today (some of them may even be on Mumsnet) who will have had to obtain their husband (or father, if they were unmarried)'s permission to open a bank account or buy something on HP.)

The continued use of 'Mrs' as the default for adult women in the UK - a country in which the majority language (English) has no 'clause' for major or minor, unlike French/German/Spanish etc - is socio-political and has no continued basis in reality.

I'm the opposite and get irritated when they think I'm not a Mrs, and refer to me as Miss!

@Oblomov22

I'm the opposite and get irritated when they think I'm not a Mrs, and refer to me as Miss!

Why?

Candles and others

It's nothing whatsoever to do with 'the patriarchy'.

Mrs was a title of RESPECT traditionally used for ALL adult women, whether they were married or not. It's only relatively recently that it was used for married women. 'Miss'and 'Ms' are versions of the same name. As I keep saying, there is no legal differentiation - it's all in peoples' minds. You can call yourself whichever you want, legally speaking.

From a feminist point of view, I think we should make a big effort to reclaim all or any of these titles. Tell people who ask that they can use any one, randomly, since in law they all mean the same.

Given that so many women have different views and feelings on this:

Use my first name
Don't use my first name
Use Ms for everyone
I hate Ms
I'm married and want to be Mrs

The poor receptionist is going to upset someone.

And all this is them assuming you're a women... another new minefield.

Generally: if no offence was intended don't take any. Most people are just doing their best.

Thing is @MalagaNights if nobody ever addresses these concerns the status quo is never challenged.

Yes. But how to bring about any change when there is no agreement?

Most women have not gone along with Ms.

So what to do?

Blaming the confused receptionist doesn't seem a good way forward when each caller will be different and potentially offended.

@scottishnames

Candles and others

It's nothing whatsoever to do with 'the patriarchy'.

Mrs was a title of RESPECT traditionally used for ALL adult women, whether they were married or not. It's only relatively recently that it was used for married women. 'Miss'and 'Ms' are versions of the same name. As I keep saying, there is no legal differentiation - it's all in peoples' minds. You can call yourself whichever you want, legally speaking.

From a feminist point of view, I think we should make a big effort to reclaim all or any of these titles. Tell people who ask that they can use any one, randomly, since in law they all mean the same.

It is to do with the patriarchy because very few men change their name on marriage, whereas women frequently change their name including their title. We have to question why more men aren't willing to change their names, is it because they see their identity as fundamental to their position in society and would never give that away.

Afft

Look, I think we are on the same side. FWIW I was born many years before you and indeed had to get a man to guarantee my first mortgage. I was there - I really was - when a lot of the early feminist discussions of titles such as 'Ms' took place.

All I am saying that we women do ourselves a disservice when we get hung up on titles. The names we are quibbling about ALL MEAN THE SAME. As feminists, we should surely just say 'I'll use whatever title I like; whether I'm married is not the concern of anyone else.' (And that is the law.)

Either that, or we should ask for something equivalent to the French 'Madame' for all women over 21. Or don't use any title at all, like most men. I think that would also really help in current gender-fluid times. After all, if you are buying - eg a new kettle from an online supplier - why on earth does it matter what - if any - marital staus or gender indentification you are? It really doesn't.

I'm married. I don't use Mrs. In fact, unless I am forced to, I don't use any title at all. Just 'first name, surname'. That is my way forward.

Can't we just scrap titles all together?

Ive called people miss xxx when speaking on phone and some get funny with that
Generally at work it will say miss or mrs on info sheet so I get it right but occasionally a message gets through with just a surname

There are plenty of women alive today (some of them may even be on Mumsnet) who will have had to obtain their husband (or father, if they were unmarried)'s permission to open a bank account or buy something on HP.)

I remember in the late 80’s my recently widowed mother buying a new luggage set in Debenhams. All went fine, including the hard sell for a store credit card. Came to “just put your husbands details/income here”, and when she couldn’t they refused the credit and the sale, even though her own personal income was on the high side.

From a feminist point of view, I think we should make a big effort to reclaim all or any of these titles. Tell people who ask that they can use any one, randomly, since in law they all mean the same

Things is though, they don’t all mean the same in everyday use. People will choose the title that reflects their situation, whether it’s “proud married”, “hairy feminist” or “sad and lonely”.

@CandlesBlanketsandTea if I am to play devil's advocate, I think - going by their username - what @scottishnames may be referring to is the fact that it was, until relatively recently (probably around the turn of the 20th c) still quite unusual for Scottish women outwith the upper/upper middle classes to change their names on marriage.

(I am Scottish, and have an interest in and knowledge of socioeconomic / genealogical history.)

It became increasingly popular around the Edwardian period, but if you wander around a Scottish graveyard, most of the headstones up until c.1920 will refer to (for example) 'Catherine McDonald, wife of John Stewart'.

However, that was then and this is now (and I also don't think it's been common to use 'Mistress' as a term of respect / catchall for adult women since the early 1900s, even in Scotland).

@scottishnames

Actually, that is an interesting position to take (the reclamation of all and everything as a feminist standpoint), but would it work?

Personally I'm not sure why anyone would object to Ms anyway, it's the only option that doesn't assume marital status

Then you get married women objecting to Ms because they want to be called Mrs because they are proud of their married status ;)

Maybe we need a whole new term that we can use like Frau in Germany.

@scottishnames

mydog but Mrs and Ms are short forms of the SAME WORD.

I'm married and I don't care what people call me. My marital status is none of their business and nor does it affect my dealings with them. I don't feel the need to announce to everyone I deal with that I am married. Why should I? It dosn't make me a better person. I didn't suddenly change character/status etc etc the moment I got married.

As I said above, you can use whichever title you like. 'Mrs' does not have any legal status - any adult woman can call themselves that.

I just don't like Ms. As I said, to me, it sounds silly.

I guess I am just old fashioned. I am not far off 70 and, yes, I am proud to be a Mrs.

I believe strongly in marriage (been married 42 years) and do not want to be called Ms.

Why do people hate ms? I never knew people were opposed to this?

How do you pronounce it?

Anyway, the thing is that women can choose which to call themselves. Nobody has to call themselves Mrs if they don't want to, and nobody has to call themselves Miss if they don't want to. Nobody is being compelled to reveal their marital status in their title. So what's the problem really?

And what's the alternative? Impose a blanket equivalent of Madame and legally force women to use it whether they want to or not? Doesn't sound very feminist or supportive of women.

Well the French got rid of mademoiselle officially in 2012, due to pressure from feminists. Sometimes you need the government to step in to get the change officially accepted.

Yes but is there any evidence that the majority of women in the UK would want that? I'm a feminist, but I don't think that means the government should impose my views on women if the majority of them don't agree. Particularly when the option for them to call themselves Ms is already there. If women want to call themselves Mrs, why shouldn't they be allowed to?

Men just get Mr
That works for them