Being automatically referred to as 'Mrs' on the basis of .. what?!

[Tailsyflugbun]

To expect a telephone receptionist to not assume I am married?!

@Snowiscold

I’d assume Mrs is a courtesy title addressed to all women. Not necessarily trying to make a thing of your marital status. They can’t call all women Miss, and lots seem to object to Ms. Mrs for all is fine.

Why can’t they call all woman Miss or Ms? Mrs for all women is NIT fine as an assumption. You’re putting your own opinion forward here. So glad to have a PhD, and enjoy correcting people to ‘Dr’ if they’re arsey. (Normally I never use it outside work.) Even if they do automatically look for a man, when they see Dr Holla written. 🤦🏻‍♀️

@Babymamamama

I think Mrs should be scrapped altogether. It derives from “of the master” or mister’s. Absolutely ridiculous outdated patriarchy in this day and age.

No, it doesn't derive from "if the master" at all. It is a shortening of mistress.

Mistress I think used to be used for both young and unmarried girls and women. However, it's shortening of "Mrs" has evolved to imply that it is the title of a married woman.

I would adopt a system similar to the French or German systems where Fraulein / Mademoiselle (i.e. Miss / Mistress) are used for all young women and girls and Frau / Madame (Mrs) for adult women, whether married or not.

@woodhill

I don't mind Mrs which is what I am, I dislike it when I am called my first name which is over familiar when I don't know the person itms

You see, by the same token, I don't like being called 'Mrs', because I'm not. Unlike you, I don't mind being called by my first name.

What I do dislike is presumption.

As a PP said, it's quite simple to ask for somebody by name, and then ask which title they prefer, if at all.

I don’t like being called Miss or Ms. My name is Mrs Kimdoo, I’m happy to politely correct people though and don’t need to make a big deal out of it if it’s wrong. I don’t like being called Kimmy by people who don’t know me. The bank always ask upon calling “is it ok to call you Kimmy?” I always say “no, it’s Mrs Kimdoo”.

I hate the automatic presumption of 'Mrs'. I'm married but I'm not 'Mrs' and I have my birth name (note: not 'maiden' name, how out of date and icky is that? Think about it).

DH is lovely and all that but, you know, I already have a name so I don't need his. People make assumptions all the time and I get mail addressed to Mrs His-Surname - even from my SIL.

I don't think it's insignificant or trivial that people make these assumptions - 'Miss', 'Mrs' and 'Ms' are all loaded in ways that 'Mr' is not. How wonderful to just have one title for the whole of your adult life with no one making assumptions about your marital status. Also just to be able to keep the names you were born with with no one questioning it. Bliss.

Actually I really don’t think it’s ok to start with “hello is that Kimmy Kimdoo speaking?” - I think the default should be Mrs Kimdoo for strangers.

Perhaps if we all adopted Mrs as a title just for adult women and not for married women only then the problem would be solved, just like in other European countries as mentioned. I know some people think Ms is ideal but it is awkward because it sounds so much like Miss, especially on the telephone.

I'd be amazed if a corporation like this one didn't have an induction policy.

Maybe my surname came up on her database and she connected me with that surname.

What I do dislike is presumption.

The OP made a presumption that the person the phone was young. I dislike that more than the presumption that I’m married. I live n a country where more women are married than not married so it’s a safer assumption here than the UK, perhaps. But to assume the person who answers the phone is young? Nope.

@Svara

Don't see why the default can't be Ms until told otherwise, or just use the person's name.

This. It should be the default just as men have one default title. Unfortunately you will get very offended women, who see having snagged a man as the ultimate prize, and say things like "I'm proud to be a Mrs". So it won't happen.

I know some people think Ms is ideal but it is awkward because it sounds so much like Miss, especially on the telephone

It doesn't though. Unless you struggle to address women called Liz, or find yourself unable to say the word fizz then it really isn't awkward at all.

I would adopt a system similar to the French or German systems where Fraulein / Mademoiselle (i.e. Miss / Mistress) are used for all young women and girls and Frau / Madame (Mrs) for adult women, whether married or not.

Fraulein has been outdated since the 1970s and its use banned in all official capacity since 1972. All adult women are Frau.

Young woman. Young voice. Always young women on reception in this particular place. I would imagine it is the unspoken company policy - have a young woman on reception as it is a male-dominated market.

I am not Mrs. I have never been Mrs. I have no intention of ever being Mrs. Ms is fine for outside work. But if they are so rude as to call me Mrs, trying to define me by my non existent relationship with some man, they deserve to have the Dr pulled out and waved at them.

Therefore, in my mind, both Miss and Mrs are incorrect. Therefore I might as well go the whole hog and let them get it wildly incorrect. I will therefore be introducing myself as "Doctor" from now on

I will quite often use Mr, especially if there is no option for my correct title (Dr- i don’t use it unless specifically asked).

Shouldn’t we all be asking for titles and pronouns anyway? You might misgender someone assuming they use male or female specific titles.

Come to think of it, I met someone else recently in a professional context and he also seemed to automatically assume I was married.

No I really don't think it's hilarious, I am dismayed that people assume that I must have a male owner. It's 2022, it's not "discourteous" to not assume that a woman you're speaking to must be married.

It is bloody discourteous to imply that if a woman is marriedthat means she has a 'male owner'. You don't like people making assumptions about you, but you seem to happily make fairly offensive ones about other people's relationships.

@nocoolnamesleft

I am not Mrs. I have never been Mrs. I have no intention of ever being Mrs. Ms is fine for outside work. But if they are so rude as to call me Mrs, trying to define me by my non existent relationship with some man, they deserve to have the Dr pulled out and waved at them.

I feel the same. If I’m asked what my tithe is, I’ll say ‘Ms’. But if someone makes the assumption and calls me ‘Mrs’, I’ll say ‘it’s Dr, actually’.

I get called Mrs instead of Miss all the time at work (school so always addressed this way) by many dc and also plenty adults. They all know I'm single it's just habit and I can't imagine being bothered about it.

Completely agree! Ms covers any marital status, so that should be the default. In fact I don't know why on earth we can't just have Ms and Mr ffs. It's so anachronistic to have different titles for married and unmarried women

@Nomoreusernames1244

Why do people hate ms? I never knew people were opposed to this?

Because it’s generally associated with hairy legged bra burning feminist lesbians who refuse to be defined by whether they are good enough for a man to marry them.

Miss- young girl or old spinster who couldn’t bag a man.

Ms- as above

Mrs- reached the high social echelons of being pretty enough to trap a man. Often defined by that man’s position and/or employment.

Dr/prof/reverend- show off who deems themselves better than everyone else and should get back in their box. Mrs is the ultimate achievement anyway for a woman, all those brains are no good if it means you can’t catch a man.

Because women’s worth is always defined by men.

Exactly this. This is the actual reason why people pretend that pronouncing Ms is difficult. It isn't, they just don't want to admit that Ms is associated with a woman who couldn't trap herself a man and obtain that exalted Mrs status.

@Tailsyflugbun

Come to think of it, I met someone else recently in a professional context and he also seemed to automatically assume I was married.

You raise a good point - the workplace is still, in very many instances, heteronormative and in some workplaces, women - especially women in senior roles who will often (but not always) be a bit north of 35 - are relatively infrequent.

The Mumsnet demographic skews older - it would be interesting to see what the very young Millennials / Gen Zers make of this in a few years.

It's just an assumption. Is it worth getting riled? I was out shopping with a friend yesterday and a shop assistant made some joke about 'careful what you say in front of your wife'. Neither of us even acknowledged it. It's really not worth getting upset about.

Don’t like Mrs and the presumption behind it (whether that’s because I’m a certain I surely must be married by now or because it would be worse to mistake a married woman for unmarried than the reverse). Mrs is absolutely not fine for all - even if we decided as a society tomorrow that it should apply to all adult women, it started off as the term for married women and I don’t want to be part of that. There is a reason feminists came up with Ms rather than campaigning for all to be Mrs.

Ms is preferred, and I’d be fine with Mx too. Miss is dreadful!

Exactly this. This is the actual reason why people pretend that pronouncing Ms is difficult. It isn't, they just don't want to admit that Ms is associated with a woman who couldn't trap herself a man and obtain that exalted Mrs status.

I don't agree. Miss for someone my age has the exact same associations. I couldn't care less what people actually use, it doesn't affect me in anyway and as I said I'd likely mostly just habit. More of the female staff at work are married than aren't

I agree OP. I insist on being called by my first name and structure my sentences to avoid using people's titles wherever possible. Gender-based titles are cringey and obsolete.