To think you can't be 'Pro choice' if you agree in mandate vaccinations?

[secular39]

There. I said it.

So you just never cared before - oddly enough most people never cared about these things before covid too. Did you also not care what your contract said before covid either?

@Theluggage15

You’re wrong *@PAFMO*. The information about the waning of the vaccine against transmission of omicron was released by the UKHSA. Presumably you’re accusing them of spreading misinformation?

No, of course not. The UKHSA (and every other expert body involved) acknowledges that whilst the booster is effective against Omicron in a way that the two primary doses aren't (particularly given the time lapsed) that too will wane in time. More conservative estimates say quote: "may wane completely after 10 weeks" but obviously research is ongoing. My issue is, as ever, with the spreading of total misinformation.

Jenny Harries, the chief executive of UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA), has urged the public to carry on getting boosted and not to be alarmed by press coverage about waning immunity.

Harries conceded that booster vaccines had waning immunity against catching Omicron after 10 weeks, but said the jabs would still help prevent serious illness and death.

Scientists at the UKHSA noted that protection against Omicron appears to wane more rapidly than Delta among people who are boosted. They found 15 to 25 per cent reduction after 10 weeks.

From the UKHSA report:

Repeated vaccine effectiveness analysis continues to show lower for symptomatic Omicron disease compared to Delta. There is evidence of waning of protection against symptomatic disease with increasing time after second dose, and by 10 weeks after the nd by 10 weeks after the booster dose, with a 15 to 25 per cent reduction in vaccine effectiveness after 10 weeks," the UKHSA wrote in its latest technical brief.

Thanks, though @Theluggage15 for encouraging me to look it up- I actually thought the waning in effectiveness after 10 weeks was more than between 15% and 25% so that's good news, isn't it?

Well, you can't say you're pro life and not support a vaccine mandate either, using the same logic.

Or perhaps the whole premise of comparing abortions to vaccines is flawed.

So, yes, yabu

[quote Bringinglightandpeace]@Awalkintime

I think you are just finding sticks to beat the OP with. I'm double vaccinated and have also had the boosters. No one should ever feel that they have to justify their own choices. Please get a grip.[/quote]
If she wasn't such a hypocrite trying to beat others with her own stick then maybe I wouldn't. Her ideas have more holes than swiss cheese!

Agree op

I'm pro vax. But completely pro choice on whether people decide to take it up

I have to work with people who are unvaccinated and I know that vaccination does not prevent spread but it reduces chance of being infected by 50%, cuts number of days testing positive and reduces chance of spreading to others particularly the vulnerable people we work with. If I am a contact of an infected person I have to spend time getting tested and keep on working if negative while my unvaccinated colleagues can spend ten days at home while I am covering their work as well as my own

Agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Pro choice is just that. Once we reach the age of maturity we should have complete autonomy of our own bodies.

You could argue that compulsory vaccination has a similar tone to it, as pro life arguments where abortion is concerned.

For those that use the argument that NHS staff are required to have certain vaccinations, I will point out that previous compulsory vaccination with other vaccines were only mandatory to those who started after or within the previous (I think) two years. Those who had been working for longer weren't required to vaccinate.

I haven't had time to read the whole thread, so apologies if someone has already said this. If you have a pregnancy terminated, you are not going to cause spontaneous abortion in people you come into contact with, similarly, pregnancy is not catching. Abortion is an individual choice that affects the pregnant woman only.

If you work with people, especially sick and potentially vulnerable people, you should get vaccinated because it reduces the risk to them.

The two situations are not the same.

@Youarefakenews

Agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Pro choice is just that. Once we reach the age of maturity we should have complete autonomy of our own bodies.

You could argue that compulsory vaccination has a similar tone to it, as pro life arguments where abortion is concerned.

For those that use the argument that NHS staff are required to have certain vaccinations, I will point out that previous compulsory vaccination with other vaccines were only mandatory to those who started after or within the previous (I think) two years. Those who had been working for longer weren't required to vaccinate.

My mum began working for the NHS in the 60s and it was always on her contract.

There is no such thing as full body autonomy, just like there’s no such thing as freedom. All freedoms end where another persons begin.

Here is a brief and not complete list of things you cannot do with your body:

Smoke inside public places

Walk around naked in public places

Take certain drugs

Be a sex worker

Take a shit on the pavement

Comparing abortion to vaccinations is as ridiculous as saying if you are against any of the examples I listed then you aren’t pro choice.

Pro choice is a specific issue, no need to compare the two to make the points you want to make against mandating vaccinations.

YANBU.

If NHS staff are mandated - not encouraged or persuaded - to have a prophylactic treatment imposed upon them, then the principle of body autonomy as a human right is torn up for everyone.

Do it or loose your job is not choice, it is coercion.

I am vaxxed to the hilt for every condition relevant to my health, my choice in light of my own risk factors. I elect (& pay to have) preventative medication to protect my own health - my body, my choice.

What next? You are too fat/thin to get treatment as resources are too scarce…oh, now you mention it, that might help with minimising the viral factor behaviours as one of the highest risk factors of serious Covid is obesity. Hey everyone, loose weight now, protect the NHS…or else.

Body autonomy - this is a fundamental principle that the NHS cannot afford to trash.. In light of existing staff resourcing challenges, NHS staff mandatory vaccination is not a hill to die on, particularly as reconfirming that NHS structure is long overdue.

@Technonan

I haven't had time to read the whole thread, so apologies if someone has already said this. If you have a pregnancy terminated, you are not going to cause spontaneous abortion in people you come into contact with, similarly, pregnancy is not catching. Abortion is an individual choice that affects the pregnant woman only.

If you work with people, especially sick and potentially vulnerable people, you should get vaccinated because it reduces the risk to them.

The two situations are not the same.

The choice to carry on with a pregnancy affects three people directly. Mum, Dad & unborn child. It is an argument for a different day. But really the potential Fathers opinion should be taken into consideration also.

Awalkintime. The Hep B mandatory vaccine came in around early noughties if I remember correctly.

AlizeeEasy A lot of what you quote is incorrect. You can smoke inside a number of places, including your own home.

You can walk around naked in public. Some places have designated permissions for nudism. Others have a tolerance approach eg know nudist beaches. Incidentally being naked in public is not a crime. An officer could charge you with outraging public decency, It could be argued in court that was not the case depending on circumstances.

You can become a sex worker, it is entirely legal and you can become properly self employed and declare tax etc.

I imagine you could theoretically take a shit on the pavement, If you could prove you had a sudden onset of the shits. It would be your actions after that would be in question. Eg did you try and clean it up etc.

Some things are in the NHS contract, but not mandatory ongoing prophylactic vaccination.

Every year, NHS management undertake a campaign to persuade all staff to have the seasonal flu job, it has to be an annual campaign to account for new strains & variants. Every year loads of NHS staff elect to not have the flu jab. Flu kills the elderly & vulnerable every year, Flu incapacitates many healthy people every year. Every year seasonal flu puts the NHS under considerable operational pressure.

Every year, we all accept treatment from an NHS where many staff are not vaccinated for flu. Has this stopped you having NHS treatment in the past?

During the worst of the pandemic in the past two years, many NHS & social care staff held the front line with little protection or vaccination, they did their best & relied upon basic infection protocols to do their duty.

Me, I am first in the queue for the seasonal flu jab as it offers me some protection, but I know it is just to shorten the odds of being very unwell. I don’t do it to protect the wellbeing of those I live & work with in close proximity. It is unethical to coerce medical treatment on people to protect others - a reasonable argument can be made, but it cannot be mandatory or coerced.

You are too fat/thin to get treatment

Already happens, also you're a female so not entitled to treatment.

@UniversalAunt

Some things are in the NHS contract, but not mandatory ongoing prophylactic vaccination.

Every year, NHS management undertake a campaign to persuade all staff to have the seasonal flu job, it has to be an annual campaign to account for new strains & variants. Every year loads of NHS staff elect to not have the flu jab. Flu kills the elderly & vulnerable every year, Flu incapacitates many healthy people every year. Every year seasonal flu puts the NHS under considerable operational pressure.

Every year, we all accept treatment from an NHS where many staff are not vaccinated for flu. Has this stopped you having NHS treatment in the past?

During the worst of the pandemic in the past two years, many NHS & social care staff held the front line with little protection or vaccination, they did their best & relied upon basic infection protocols to do their duty.

Me, I am first in the queue for the seasonal flu jab as it offers me some protection, but I know it is just to shorten the odds of being very unwell. I don’t do it to protect the wellbeing of those I live & work with in close proximity. It is unethical to coerce medical treatment on people to protect others - a reasonable argument can be made, but it cannot be mandatory or coerced.

Totally agree. Also if these members of staff are so dangerous to everyone, Then the NHS must remove them from all front line duties NOW.

@Awalkintime

You are too fat/thin to get treatment

Already happens, also you're a female so not entitled to treatment.

You are now frankly talking nonsense. The obese/underweight always get emergency treatment. An operation may be refused if eg obesity is considered too high a comorbidity and creates too large a risk of death.

In these cases if not getting an operation will result in death, then paliative care is put in place.

As for being refused treatment due to sex, Can you give an example.

Youarefakenews

Not talking nonesense. A fat person goes for medical help. Gets diagnosed with fat (apparently that is an illness) then gets told it is because of this fat and turned away without help. Repeat 3 or 4 times before finally being allowed treatment.

Yes I can I have been refused sterilisation because I am female for the past 20 years, while all my friend's husbands get theirs as soon as they ask. Same GP just different sex asking.

@Youarefakenews oh jeez

• You are not allowed to smoke in pubs in the UK
• You are not allowed to walk naked in city centres in the UK
• You are not allowed to have sex in city centres in the UK
• You are not allowed to solicit sex on the street

-You are not allowed to be a pimp -You are not allowed to choose to take a shit on the street and then not clean it up

NHS trusts have clear immunisation policies for a range of diseases such as hepatitis and tuberculosis. They all state that employees are expect to comply with these policies unless there are medical contraindications otherwise. This has been the case for years. It is not controversial, it is based on risk.

Add COVID vaccines onto the list of a very well established policy and everyone suddenly loses their shit like this is the first time anyone has ever required vaccinations as a condition of employment.

It just shows you what kind of a society we live in really. Full of people who think they know best even though they know nothing.

It's blackmail, pure and simple.

So OP it's not about body autonomy then, it's about blackmail ??

They are different so choose your argument, the body autonomy is absolutely tripe and does not have an ounce of truth to it.

So addressing it as blackmail is also incorrect. It is a consequence to a negative action or an action that could put others ,particularly the vulnerable, at risk.

We have many laws that mean a person needs to do something In order to potentially keep others safe.

You can choose what you do or put into your own body, that right is refused when that action poses a risk to others.

You may be angry and feel that this is unfair, which is absolutely fine, but you can't justify those feelings with nonsense.

@Eleganz

NHS trusts have clear immunisation policies for a range of diseases such as hepatitis and tuberculosis. They all state that employees are expect to comply with these policies unless there are medical contraindications otherwise. This has been the case for years. It is not controversial, it is based on risk.

Add COVID vaccines onto the list of a very well established policy and everyone suddenly loses their shit like this is the first time anyone has ever required vaccinations as a condition of employment.

It just shows you what kind of a society we live in really. Full of people who think they know best even though they know nothing.

I don't believe the NHS insists on a TB vaccine as a condition of employment. They test new staff that have come from known areas with TB & vaccinate accordingly. I believe the UK stopped routinely immunising children for TB a good while back too.

Measles, Mumps & Rubella along with Chicken Pox are not routinely immunised against in the UK among health workers. Either history of childhood immunisation or history of having been in contact and created self immunity are considered good enough.

Likewise the only hepatic disease immunised against is Hep B.

I can't think of anything other than Hep B that staff are forced to take to carry on employment. And as already said, this only applied to new employees.

All the other things I describe above like MMR have well road tested vaccines. The vaccine for Covid 19 is an entirely new vaccine made for an entirely new Virus, Given under a special license that protects the producers from any fallout from it. With that in mind, is it right to force people to take it just to carry on doing the same job they have been doing for two Years.

The vaccine for Covid 19 is an entirely new vaccine made for an entirely new Virus, Given under a special license that protects the producers from any fallout from it.

Are we still peddling that bollocks? The COVID 19 vaccines did not come out of nowhere. Work was ongoing on vaccines for SARS and MERS (both coronaviruses) - this was mothballed when those viruses subsided into insignificance, but that work was a platform to work from.

The technology isn't new either - mRNA vaccines have been in use for around a decade.

And the vaccines went through all the usual stages of clinical trial just like any other new treatment.

Stop it with the lies and misinformation already.

• I don't believe the NHS insists on a TB vaccine as a condition of employment. They test new staff that have come from known areas with TB & vaccinate accordingly. I believe the UK stopped routinely immunising children for TB a good while back too.

Measles, Mumps & Rubella along with Chicken Pox are not routinely immunised against in the UK among health workers. Either history of childhood immunisation or history of having been in contact and created self immunity are considered good enough.

Likewise the only hepatic disease immunised against is Hep B.

I can't think of anything other than Hep B that staff are forced to take to carry on employment. And as already said, this only applied to new employees.

If only Mumsnet had a like button. I am even overdue on my doses for the Hep B vaccine.