To think you can't be 'Pro choice' if you agree in mandate vaccinations?

[secular39]

There. I said it.

secular39
So you have a family history of blood clotting and yet you still gave your child the MMR even though you know there was a risk and without getting their consent?

It's easier to say "get another job" when there is that alternative. Assuming we were living in Israel where EVERY job requires an up-to-date Covid vaccine, would you be so understanding?

The problem with these things is it's a slippery slope. Today it's NHS, tomorrow it's teachers, the next day its all public servants, all the way until you can't enter shops or you have to pay for any treatment in an otherwise free healthcare system.

You can't use the excuse of "covid affects many people" either. At the end of the day, it's something you are doing with your own body, so either you support bodily autonomy or you don't. Otherswise you can use that argument for forced sterilisation etc.

bluebeach it’s not yet known how long the vaccine will start to wane hut I don’t know anyone who thinks it’s a one off vaccine

Of course there is trials for the booster vaccine and the side effects (we all have the option to report in the Yellow Card site/app)

We are told of possible side effects this may change as the vaccines are having to be tweaked as the virus is still mutating

This happens with the flu jab too

I am a HCP I know it’s likely I shall have to have another vaccine this year (it’s past three months now) I rathe tit wasn’t that way but it is as we are still in the pandemic

@secular39

Yes. Exactly. I have seen many posts citing that NHS workers are selfish/inconsiderate/ anti-vaxers if they do not get the vaccinations. Many of my friends who are working in the NHS are flabbergasted that some of their colleagues have been given dismal letters for not having the vaccine.

Mandating the vaccine is basically a fuck you to body autonomy. As a woman, no one can tell me what I should or should do not do with my body and I should not be penalised over my decisions.

Many Mumsnetters on here are pro choice (thankfully) but time and time again I'm seeing collectively views of people refusing to take the vaccine as 'scum' it's ridiculous.

I agree, people have the right to refuse the vaccine. I, however, should also have the choice not to be treated or cared for by someone unvaccinated. When DH was working with human blood products as part of his research, he had to have a hepatitis jab. No jab, no access to the products he needed for his research. This is not new, there s a precedent for needing specific jabs in certain situations.

You can't use the excuse of "covid affects many people" either

Watch me.

@strivingtosucceed

It's easier to say "get another job" when there is that alternative. Assuming we were living in Israel where EVERY job requires an up-to-date Covid vaccine, would you be so understanding?

The problem with these things is it's a slippery slope. Today it's NHS, tomorrow it's teachers, the next day its all public servants, all the way until you can't enter shops or you have to pay for any treatment in an otherwise free healthcare system.

You can't use the excuse of "covid affects many people" either. At the end of the day, it's something you are doing with your own body, so either you support bodily autonomy or you don't. Otherswise you can use that argument for forced sterilisation etc.

So if you support autonomy then you support patients freedom of choice in deciding who treats them and give them a choice of vaccinated nurses or unvaccinated nurses? Freedom of choice goes both ways, right?

Choice and consent apply to everything.

My employer doesn't have to consent to pay me if I choose not to show up to work. I only consent to do the work on the grounds that they pay me, and give me leave. I have the choice to leave if I don't like the work, but I don't have the choice to tell them that they must now give me a role in consumer research.

It's nothing to do with bodily autonomy.

Well it's clearly a false equivalency. And there are philosophical contradictions unless one concurrently believes that abortion does have wider ranging affects on society such as a pandemic does.

Nevertheless I do absolutely believe in bodily autonomy and do not believe in mandatory vaccines.
I do however also believe that if people want to be fully functioning members of a society in which our children are safe, such as our kids having mandatory MMRs then I support people abstaining from it, not being allowed to have their kids in the same school system. For instance.

[quote niccyb]@gettingmylifetogether. The vaccine doesn’t stop you getting the virus or does it stop you passing it on.

Against the Covid-19 virus there was 80% effectiveness against infecting someone else but in the trials for the effectiveness against the DELtA and on ice on virus there was actually very little protection.
Not to mention, you do realise that it is only NHS front line employed staff and carers who have been ordered to have the vaccine? GP’s and dentists are not employed by the NHS and therefore it will remain their choice whether they have it.
Also when the NHS nurse leave the NHS and decides to work for a private company because they don’t want the vaccine. The NHS will look to that nurse and private company to work in her old role for more pay and without needing the vaccine because there will be a shortage of staff![/quote]
It's not just the nhs though, it also affects independent sectors like private hospitals, agency staff. The actually wording is 'CQC regulated activity' not 'NHS only'.

@strivingtosucceed

It's easier to say "get another job" when there is that alternative. Assuming we were living in Israel where EVERY job requires an up-to-date Covid vaccine, would you be so understanding?

The problem with these things is it's a slippery slope. Today it's NHS, tomorrow it's teachers, the next day its all public servants, all the way until you can't enter shops or you have to pay for any treatment in an otherwise free healthcare system.

You can't use the excuse of "covid affects many people" either. At the end of the day, it's something you are doing with your own body, so either you support bodily autonomy or you don't. Otherswise you can use that argument for forced sterilisation etc.

The OP was happy to say those exact words "get another job" last summer when posters working in the childcare sector were talking about low wages.

In the same way she (?) told a poster who said that under certain circumstances she'd have a termination that she would be committing infanticide.

And saying blatantly false and untrue things about vaccinating teenagers.

Yes, OP, YOU told us to look at your previous threads.

You should be careful what you wish for.

It is not coercion or blackmail, Grow up. ...Actions have consequences.

I've been listening to that argument for > 1 year and it's not convinced me, yet.

Can't enrol in school in some US states without vaccines = "consequences"

USA tried to mandate that ALL employers must get proof of negative Covid test or Covid jab from their employees and many employers adopted jab requirement or lose your job = "consequences"

English Care home staff, get Covid jab or lose your job = "consequences"

Israel, large public events = get jab or you aren't allowed in = "consequences"

Austria proposed policy for everyone, "get jab or pay a fine" = "consequence"

How extreme does the "consequence" have to be before we call it coercion? I don't understand what the threshold is between "consequence" and "coercion". Does someone have to point a gun before we call it coercion?

In which case why does the offence of coercive control exist in English law -- is humiliating abuse the actual threshold?

I'm waiting for the country that publishes, names & shames, people who haven't had a covid vaccine.

Again it’s based on risk

There is more risk having non vaccinated staff

On wards/community setting risk management is a huge part of the treatment/care

Are we meant to suddenly ignore risk. And put extra pressure of other staff

In the same way she (?) told a poster who said that under certain circumstances she'd have a termination that she would be committing infanticide

Ahahaha. No I didn't. 😂🤣😂

@Awalkintime

secular39 So you have a family history of blood clotting and yet you still gave your child the MMR even though you know there was a risk and without getting their consent?

Yes. I spaced out the MMR injections and conducted these separately on a private basis. If any of my kids had any sort of reaction, I would not have gone for a second dose. I measured it based on risk.

The OP was happy to say those exact words "get another job" last summer when posters working in the childcare sector were talking about low wage

If someone is complaining about low wages. I stand by my view that they should find another job . Childcare qualifications are very transferable, the OP can do into nannying, private childminding, TA work. OP would move to another job if I have was being paid on low wages.

That's would be completely different the government proposed that she must take xyz vaccines if she would ever want to work with children ever again. OP is fucked in this situation and would mostly need to retrain.

My job is very specialist and I would need to retrain if mandate vaccines roll out through the NHS and private health sectors.

I never knew the logic behind Pro-choice thinking was "abortion is okay because it doesn't matter"

I always thought that bodily autonomy played an important part

secular39
So you never checked if they had that same family blood clotting disorder just went in for the kill and hoped for the best. Their risk is less than yours despite the family history? How bizarre, given the chances of a blood clot in children with the MMR is there just the same as an adult with the covid jab. So what you are saying is it was fine for your kids to be put at risk of a blood clot but not you?

In the words of a great doctor

"It's not just your body. Not getting the vaccine could hurt someone else"

@Awalkintime

secular39 So you never checked if they had that same family blood clotting disorder just went in for the kill and hoped for the best. Their risk is less than yours despite the family history? How bizarre, given the chances of a blood clot in children with the MMR is there just the same as an adult with the covid jab. So what you are saying is it was fine for your kids to be put at risk of a blood clot but not you?

Who told you that they have not conducted tests. It's none of your concern. They are my kids and I'm not talking about my children on this thread. It's irrelevant. They took the Mmr at a later age than typically, and we conducted these separately and spaced these out, no clues are to why?!!

@secular39

There. I said it.

Congratulations. Utter non sequitur.

It's not just your body. Not getting the vaccine could hurt someone else"

So body autonomy is conditional on society being okay with it?

Does sound a bit slippery slopey

secular39
So you have never had your test but you got the kids tested? Believable.

And given there is still a risk without the family history you still went ahead. Yes it is relevant when you are on about family history being the reason you are not getting jabbed yet willing to crash test them on your kids despite the risk.

You’re wrong @PAFMO. The information about the waning of the vaccine against transmission of omicron was released by the UKHSA. Presumably you’re accusing them of spreading misinformation?

So you have never had your test but you got the kids tested? Believable

Nope. Didn't want to and didn't need to. When I've been prescribed medication or contraception, I informed doctors that I have a family history of blood clots and they gave me alternative means. To be honest, I knew they were risks but I didn't take it that serious . Bitterly regret it now as it would have saved all this aggro. But I only took it serious when a close relative suffered a blood clot due to medication we suspect) and hence we are going though a medical legal battle. Don't really want to go to the ins and out as this is very identifying.

All my children have neurological differences. As part of this, they have undergone quite thorough testing which went on for the past two years- based on family history and what medical conditions they wanted/need to investigate at the time. Wish I took the opportunity then to do the testing but my priority was my children and did not really want to go through with evasive testing. However, whatever medication I give them, I have always been cautious regardless.

Should say 'suffered and died from a blood clot'