To think you can't be 'Pro choice' if you agree in mandate vaccinations?

[secular39]

There. I said it.

Pregnancy is far more personal than a vaccination programme in a pandemic.

I'm not advocating for mandatory vaccination. But they aren't comparable.

You can't be pro choice when it comes to specific circumstances and not be pro choice in certain situations.

Of course you can. It's called context.

False equivalence.

Mandatory vaccinations for staff working with vulnerable groups are to protect others, and not comparable with whether or not people are forced to continue with pregnancies that will only impact their own lives.

There's also a school of thought that care homes and healthcare providers could be exposed to liability if someone became unwell because they contracted Covid from staff in a care or healthcare setting, because the provider had failed to put in place effective infection control measures.

YABU.

But you are saying it's more important to protect other people by having a vaccine than it is to end an unborn childs life. Because no matter how you want to dress it up, you're ending a life having an abortion.

@StanleyGreen I don't consider it ending a life at that stage, but you're getting off-topic.

Simply put, I support every woman's right to decide to continue with a pregnancy or not.

I do not support every person's right to refuse to get vaccinated and continue to participate fully in society. I also make a distinction between people who refuse to get vaccinated, and people who have been medically advised not to get the vaccination. For people in the latter category, they're part of the reason why I have been vaccinated and why I mask up, wash my hands and use hand sanitiser. I think everyone who can get vaccinated should, because there will always be some people who can't.

People who can and refuse are just selfish. It's like the people who were never exempt from wearing face masks and said they were. Ruined it for the people who were actually exempt and needed more protection and understanding.

I don't see why it's so controversial to give half a damn about the society around you.

We are not hounded by Occupational Health to receive vaccinations. If we don't want then, they don't bother

Bollocks. They don’t have to “hound” you because your vaccination status and health screening should be done before appointment. If your OH and HR are shite then it doesn’t mean it’s shite in every other trust. You only need one course of Hep B vaccine so of course OH/management don’t need to send weekly emails as most healthcare workers will have had it before appointment to their first ever post and eventually almost everyone will have had it as it’s now in the 6in1 baby vaccine. Frankly we are “hounded” about flu vaccines every year because our bastard management want to protect us from flu. Twats. Honestly. Caring for the most clinically vulnerable people in society is not some sort of human right. Absolutely sick of people thinking they are so special that their choices should be consequence free. Don’t have the vaccine if you don’t want but don’t expect to waltz onto an oncology ward either.

OP

You are wrong about OH when it comes to front line HCP. If OH don't pass you then you don't get the job.

Some vaccines are mandatory for certain jobs, there are the odd exceptions, I worked with one person who had been jabbed for Hep B 3 times, every time she was tested she had not seroconverted.

As a department she was never in contact with someone with known HepB.

In my day only girls were given rubella jabs, I was given no choice even though I knew I would never have children, but it was also to protect other people.

I can see the arguments with covid vax but if you refuse to have the jab then any time for isolation should be unpaid, you should have to wear full PPE at all times in the hospital / care setting.

Many frontline workers have antibodies from contracting covid early in the pandemic. They likely are no more threat to patients than vaccinated workers. alethonews.com/2021/12/14/a-huge-israeli-study-shows-natural-covid-immunity-is-far-superior-to-the-vaccine-generated-kind/

Having the freedom to put things into or take things out of your own body should always remain your own choice.

@bluebeach

Having the freedom to put things into or take things out of your own body should always remain your own choice.

It still is. No one is being forced.

No one is forcing NHS workers to have the vaccine. But they are practically being blackmailed to get the vaccine or risk losing their jobs.

This is the second misuse of the word "blackmail" I've seen in two days. (The other was a Conservative MP saying MPs had been "blackmailed" with a threat of funding being taken away from their constituencies.)

You need to look up the word "blackmail" in the dictionary, it does not mean the same thing as "threatened." NHS workers are being threatened, they are not being blackmailed.

I've looked it up for everyone, here is what google says "blackmail" means

the action, treated as a criminal offence, of demanding payment or another benefit from someone in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them

Oh that’s good then we can guess who has antibodies and who doesn’t

Many front line workers may have had Covid and been asymptomatic. Testing was slow for the first few months. And then there is the issue of some having no antibodies after six months after a positive result

How do you keep in top of testing for antibodies you can’t it’s impossible

Agree, it’s impossible to keep testing antibodies. But vaccination induced antibodies can wane after 3 months. Are you suggesting all healthcare workers get vaccinated every three months? Where are the clinical trials to see how repeated vaccinations affect the body? Original trials only looked at effects of two injections.

Not have the vaccine, that's fine, but you will lose your job.
Not backmail.

Have sex with me right or else I'll leave you.
Not backmail.

Send me naked picture of you, no? Or I will tell your family what you did 5 years ago.
This is blackmail.

If you go out with your friend tonight, I would not be here.
Not blackmail.

@secular39

Yes. Exactly. I have seen many posts citing that NHS workers are selfish/inconsiderate/ anti-vaxers if they do not get the vaccinations. Many of my friends who are working in the NHS are flabbergasted that some of their colleagues have been given dismal letters for not having the vaccine.

Mandating the vaccine is basically a fuck you to body autonomy. As a woman, no one can tell me what I should or should do not do with my body and I should not be penalised over my decisions.

Many Mumsnetters on here are pro choice (thankfully) but time and time again I'm seeing collectively views of people refusing to take the vaccine as 'scum' it's ridiculous.

Yes some people seem very confused. You agree with bodily autonomy or you don't. It really is that simple.

@gettingmylifetogether

No. YABU. I'm pro-choice when it comes to pregnancy, because whether or not to have a baby has a massive physical and mental impact on the woman. I will go to my grave defending female freedoms to decide whether or not they want to give birth or not.

Covid vaccines aren't just about you. They're about the people you come into contact with.

Deciding not to have a Covid vaccine is only acceptable if your medical history suggests it's a bad idea and/or you intend to live in a cave. If you want to participate in society and your doctor sees no reason why you can't have the vaccine, yes, you're being selfish.

This.

Specific jobs may require certain physical things. You can have height restrictions, age restrictions. You already have to have certain vaccinations in nhs.

If you contract hep b, c or hiv there are certain things that you may need additional testing for or you may not be able to do (depending on viral load). You can’t just say - I need to have bodily autonomy AND be able to do whatever I want. If you have transmissible TB or ebola, there will be restrictions until you are treated and non transmissible. If you have uncontrolled seizures or develop certain eye problems, you Can’t be hgv driver.

Exactly what restrictions are in place will depend on a risk benefit calculation and be specific to the condition/risk.

boobot1
But there is no issue over autonomy, no one is being forced against their will.

People have the choice to get vaccinated or find a different job. It's not a great choice in the grand scheme of things, but it's a choice all the same. Bleating on about my body, my choice in the middle of a worldwide health emergency just smacks of self importance. Don't get the the vaccine. Just don't. But if your employer requires that you do get it, leave. Your great intellect and insight about vaccines, which marks you out from other mere mortals, means you will have no problem excelling in a new field.

There is a choice. You don't have to have them, but with that choice comes consequences: restricted freedoms and choice in jobs. No one is being forced to have them, it's just that if you don't have them, you can't work in certain industries or jobs

We were told less likely to get covid and less likely to pass it on but that just doesn't seem to be the case from what has happened over the last couple of months 🤷‍♀️ the evidence seems to speak for itself. I am not an anti vaxer but don't believe mandating it is a good thing

@WishIwasElsa

We were told less likely to get covid and less likely to pass it on but that just doesn't seem to be the case from what has happened over the last couple of months 🤷‍♀️ the evidence seems to speak for itself. I am not an anti vaxer but don't believe mandating it is a good thing

Two doses of the vaccine (particularly as efficiency wanes over time) are, indeed, not much cop against new variants. A booster is very effective against Omicron.

@DontTellThemYourNamePike

People have the choice to get vaccinated or find a different job. It's not a great choice in the grand scheme of things, but it's a choice all the same. Bleating on about my body, my choice in the middle of a worldwide health emergency just smacks of self importance. Don't get the the vaccine. Just don't. But if your employer requires that you do get it, leave. Your great intellect and insight about vaccines, which marks you out from other mere mortals, means you will have no problem excelling in a new field.

Interestingly, when it comes to other things, the OP is more than happy to tell other posters to find a new job.

Childcare workers for example. On threads where there is discussion about low pay. (July 2021) "then you can look for a new job"

Presumably all these people who want mandatory vaccines (not going to happen now anyway) are insisting that anyone who had their booster more than 8 weeks ago has another one as the transmission effect will have completely waned by now, otherwise your statements about protection for others are just silly.

@Theluggage15

Presumably all these people who want mandatory vaccines (not going to happen now anyway) are insisting that anyone who had their booster more than 8 weeks ago has another one as the transmission effect will have completely waned by now, otherwise your statements about protection for others are just silly.

Well, it won't "completely" have waned, will it? So your misinformation makes your hypothesis a moot point.

But yep. If I need to have another vaccine to continue to do my job and live normally (and more importantly, in the knowledge I'm not putting anyone else at risk) then yes, I would.

But you can still catch it and spread it when vaccinated, so you could still be putting others at risk.