Youngest Daughter in bits on phone - advice please

[Icecreamlover63]

My Youngest Daughter has just been on the phone and is extremely upset. I have seen this coming for some time but i cannot say anything about peoples relationships however i would appreciate some advice.
In 2019 my daughter was engaged and found out that her then fiancée had spent £3 on gambling in six months. He promised he would not do this again was so very repentant and she forgave hi.
In very early 2020 they got married. They moved into military housing about 8 miles away and appeared very happy.
Then they got transferred to Wiltshire and my daughter got a job at a local hospital and promptly made lots of friends and loved her new job. She joined a gym and lost some weight and was looking amazing.
Her husband's, Mother came over in October 2021 and was furious as she had just had a phone call completely out of the blue. It was the bank informing her that her sons account was overdrawn by £600. (when her son went to Afghanistan she had to have access to his accounts in case he died) and she had forgotten all about it.
The account was overdrawn because of 2 large bets of £500 each.
My daughter again lost her temper and he promised never to do it again.
Just before Christmas he took £500 out of their joint account to pay his friend as apparently he had bailiffs at the door. Then he took another £250 out a one of his friends could not see his children. My daughter said can you give those two friends the account number for our joint account so they can pay it back into the account it came out of. Guess what he said he wouldn't and said they money was going back into his sole account.
He has not spoken to my daughter most evenings and only watches football on sky. He refuses to go out at all in January and has ben very rude to her on lots of occasions.
Basically she has had enough of the gambling and the lies and just basically being ignored.

Fast forward to today!! She has just gone back to collect some of her bits and he started screaming at her and saying she was sneaky moving half of the money into her savings account before she had even spoken to him. She moved it this morning as she did not want him to be reckless and bet it away. He then started to blame her for having mental health problems and that when she was at home she was unhappy (not true) and that he had to speak to welfare in the Army to get married quarters early. They got their married quarters 3 weeks before they got married (which is the normal time line).
He has told her she always runs back to London when she is upset. Again not true she has been to us 4 times in 4 months and two of those times he was with her.

She is so upset and so distraught I honestly don't know what to do and she is driving back home now. I wish i could say she was right but I feel it would be wrong for me to say so. Please can you advise me what to do and also if you think she has made the right decision.
I do understand there is 2 sides to the story but my daughter has moved half way across the country and has not lied, she is devestated.

@ESGdance

His behaviour now towards your DD is just further manifestations of the obsessing, intensity, compulsion and impulsivity that is the core of the addictive personality.

This man is emotionally dysfunctional and dysregulated and your DD has absorbed and endured a shocking level of disrespect, abuse and neglect to date.

Her own perspective is now so skewed as he has belittled and degraded her over time that she doesn’t even realise that these behaviours are totally unacceptable. Her self esteem is so gaslit and diminished that she needs to be 100% away from him to recentre herself in an emotionally healthy, reciprocal environment to rebuild her trust in her own self worth and judgment.

....and this. This was from 29th January but could just as well been in the past couple of days.

She needs to be 100 % away from him to recentre herself. Not on the phone, not a listening ear, not piling up letters, badgered by his family or by her parents who've also been taking their calls for some reason, not doorstepped at work or in places she might be going - there will be something I've missed. Not whatever that is either. Now there's been one meeting, this will mean he'll try others, but you know that.

@NeverDropYourMooncup

SIL's mother is 'helping' him by telling him exactly what shit he needs to spout to convince her to ignore her very sensible instincts that this relationship is completely over for her own protection.

Her letter will give the woman all the ammunition she needs for the abuser to plan his next charm offensive/borderline harassment/stalking. Unless it says 'It's over, I will not change my mind, I do not want to hear from him ever again and will not be responding to any further communications from him, you or his father'.

Women who have ignored their instincts are the ones who have offered been persuaded /groomed into situations, where they've been murdered.

@NeverDropYourMooncup

It's all bullshit.

He's just saying what she wants to hear. He's only done it because he can tell that she might waver and go back to him. And as soon as she does, he'll be back to the same old shit again, just as he was lying in a phone call to your DH days beforehand. Chances are that he's still lying now. Taking out dodgy credit to pay for gambling that won't show up until he empties her wages out of the account again or takes out a credit card in her name.

She needs to be no contact with him. And you need to tell her that he's only saying this because he wants her income. That's what he loves, the money she has access to, not her.

You have to take sides. Your daughter's. If you don't, he will take her again.

Yep, agreed.

He's scum. Your family needs to block him and his parents and leave it all in the hands of solicitors. If your DD goes back to him, you'll be back here in six months or less repeating the same story from your original post.

From my post above: 'there will be something I've missed. Not whatever that is either.'

I don't want to cast a cloud of apprehension and spoil things here, but it is possible that 'what I missed' as per the above could be 'him turning up 'coincidentally' on her imminent holiday, or at the airport, probably when she returns and her guard is lowered.' If she mentioned this to him I think it's worth taking plenty of care, with the hotel or resort not giving away where she is staying, for example.

Yes, This wretched MIL is desperate to get this settled so it doesn't become her problem.
The guy calling your gentle, empathetic & possibly gullible husband & telling him such a load of bare faced lies is unforgivable.
Your DD needs to look at the manipulative person he is & not focus on the gambling.
She needs to go go NC & heal. She needs to block his number, & only read his emails on return
Watch out for threats of suicide, it's frequent in the abusers handbook.

Op I have been reading this thread that I've just seen WISHING I had seen it back in January

Had I seen it in jan I would have advised the following, some of which you have been advised by others some I am very concerned your dd may not have been advised or done

I appreciate some is too little too late but perhaps will help another reading in a similar situation

1 dd must check her credit history and legally separate herself financially from him asap - this is IMPORTANT and must be done as a matter of urgency

2 Told his CO exactly what had happened - the gambling, theft, fraud, coercive control and abuse

3 absolutely no reason she had to live in the mq WITH him - he should have moved into single Accom, I suspect the reasons he didn't want to was then he would have had to tell his CO his marriage was over and why. Also because the single Accom was in the fence line and mq wasn't? Meaning if he stayed in mq any bailiffs/debt collectors that showed up wouldn't have been through camp security and his CO then being told (excessive/irresponsible debt alone is a disciplinary offence in the military)

4 DO NOT accept the military financial mediation etc - they have a vested interest in keeping things quiet and supporting their employee - your sil NOT in doing what is best for your dd. She's better off getting support from a debt charity with expertise in gambling addiction. The gambling charities can sometimes help, I believe Christian's against poverty have such experts but I may be wrong/out of date on that one

Is his skip up in 4 years by any chance?

His career is over!

Seriously unless he does a MASSIVE turnaround - and then some!

He won’t get promoted or anything. I’m utterly amazed he’s not being disciplined out basically immediately (in reality it usually takes 3-6 months)

But then it’s entirely possible you’re STILL not getting the whole truth - even from the army! If he supposedly chooses to leave within the next year or leaves on medical grounds quite honestly I'd think that was another lie and he was disciplined out

He is in our area tomorrow as he is up to watch a match

Any decent gambling counsellor would be advising him NOT to attend sports fixtures if it’s related to his gambling. Hell he'd be told to not even watch on tv!

That being the case either he’s not telling them he’s going or he’s not actually in gambling therapy at all!

SIL has not bet for 50 days he sat down showed her his bank statements and explained he is attending counselling, showed her the emails with appointments confirmation.

None of which proves ANYTHING!

he has given her full access to his bank accounts

Which she should refuse! If she has access to the money she can be held liable for debt on those accounts also! My ex wasn't a gambler but ran up an overdraft on our joint account that I had to fight legally not to be half liable for!

And it’s NOT just gambling he’s been very controlling and abusive too. She needs a clean break from this guy.

Block him, don't see him, no meals out, no talks - what is the point? They've no dc to manage contact. Divorce handled via lawyers there's really no point in talking. She is best off moving on

She is NOT obligated to engage with the army at all she is not their employee - he is.

She also has absolutely no good reason to communicate with her soon to be (hopefully) former mil and fil and I think also a step fil?

Clean break all around is the absolute best thing she can do for herself

Fwiw decent addiction counsellors would also advise that it takes AT LEAST 12 months in full on addiction therapy, not engaging in ANY behaviour related to the addiction or associating with people related to the addiction before an addict should even consider resuming or starting a new relationship

He isn't doing any of that is he?

Thank you for your replies I am very grateful.
We have all learnt valuable lessons over the past six weeks. My dd regrets meeting SIL on Sunday but she did it because she had practical bits to sort out. SIL was extremely upset as was she. She felt angry and sad she is also very worried because SIL was talking about who gets the money if he dies. He is in the military. Dd said she didn’t want it and would split it in his family then yesterday flowers arrived he wants to sort out counselling. He has made my dd question her decision but she knows she is doing the right thing. Personally I think he is desperate we have all blocked his number as I think he just is so keen to get back with my dd that any little thing that is said would give him false hope. That would be sad too. Addiction is an illness but SIL behaviour goes so much deeper.

He told my dd he has asked for a transfer and his parents have asked if she could delay the divorce so SIL could transfer to a house as married quarters. I am extremely concerned that if dd did this she would be seen as taking part in fraud and I find that worrying. I am grappling with wether I should phone the Welfare office as I’m worried about his mental health and I’m concerned that she could be unwittingly taking part in fraud

OK so he gained entitlement to the house when they got married but once you separate you are then no longer entitled. You get 93 days 'cooling off period' and then if it's clear you aren't going to reconcile (spoiler alert, in this case it ain't gonna happen) and then you are given notice to vacate. Divorces can drag on for years in some cases (hopefully not in your DD's case). You don't get to keep a house entitlement just because you are married to someone even if you are actually separated.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/joint-service-housing-advice-office-leaflet-index/occupation-of-service-family-accommodation-updated-april-2020

He should have changed his PSTAT to show they are separated, if your DD has moved out then she's done nothing wrong. She would only be doing something wrong if she tells the army that they are still together in a relationship so that he can keep the house; regardless of the divorce status. The onus is very much on him to keep them informed of the correct status, on the one hand it's crap cos we are an irrelevance as military wives but that also means we have none of the responsibility for shit like this!

His parents are trying to stall the divorce because it is a final demonstration that they are never getting back together.

his parents have asked if she could delay the divorce so SIL could transfer to a house as married quarters. I am extremely concerned that if dd did this she would be seen as taking part in fraud

And you are right to worry about his. My exH tried the same shit with me in regards to a military 'spousal supplement' payment he was receiving when we separated. For some reason, like DD, I felt I should go along with it. God knows why, because I certainly had no reason to feel guilty about the separation.

Luckily a good friend sat me down and told me that I would be lying to the government and that's fraud. Fraud that I could be held accountable for. And also, why the hell did I think I 'owed' him anything at all? If he was upset at the separation then he needed to be upset at himself for his behaviour. Not at me for calling him on it!

Also, in my situation the supplement stopped immediately upon marital separation not upon divorce. Chances are that SiL's housing is the same way. It has nothing to do with actually being divorced, it has do to with the fact that they are no longer living together as a married couple. She needs to file for divorce. That is the best way of protecting herself from any future financial harm he may cause. He deserves no loyalty or assistance from her.

So again I have spoken to the military.
SIL is not being posted at all I matter what he says! He is trying to play the mental health route but they want him to stay in his posting now so they can look after him. He is going back into barracks in the next 3 weeks and I think that would be best for Everyone. He will be looked after and my dd will make sure she is not taking place in any fraudulent housing situation.
He phoned her and has said everything will now be going through email for contact. So much better for both of them. He did blackmail her though by saying if she lied and didn’t tell the military about him going through the mental health route he would give her an easy divorce other wise it will be messy.

His words were ‘play nice xxxxx’.
She has this on recording and will play it if necessary. She feels very vulnerable SIL has also listed himself on dating apps in our area. He lives over 80 miles away and he is doing this to see if she is on the dating apps. Which she isn’t. My dh informed the military of both of the above because it’s all starting to feel abit sinister!

He is such a manipulative shit, isn't he? But that's an addicts No 1 tool, emotional manipulation.

I'm glad she's said 'email only'. She may want to consider having you or her dad read any emails from him first and 'edit out' any manipulative or abusive language then just tell her what she needs to know. Has she now blocked him from her phone and any SM?

Your DH was right to report him. I think that's the best weapon in DD's arsenal. If he realizes that she/her dad has no fear of going to his CO and reporting what he says, I think he'll stop.

Just what does he think he can make 'so hard' about their divorce? My understanding is that the UK is going 'no fault' next month and that they have no property and (I assume) no 'huge value' assets. Sounds like a pretty simple divorce to me.

I live in a no fault US state, and from filing to final it's about 6 months to end marital status. If no settlement has been reached the divorce is 'bifurcated' which ends the marriage but allows the financial bit to be worked out later. Hopefully, the UK is doing something similar.

@Icecreamlover63

So again I have spoken to the military. SIL is not being posted at all I matter what he says! He is trying to play the mental health route but they want him to stay in his posting now so they can look after him. He is going back into barracks in the next 3 weeks and I think that would be best for Everyone. He will be looked after and my dd will make sure she is not taking place in any fraudulent housing situation. He phoned her and has said everything will now be going through email for contact. So much better for both of them. He did blackmail her though by saying if she lied and didn’t tell the military about him going through the mental health route he would give her an easy divorce other wise it will be messy. His words were ‘play nice xxxxx’. She has this on recording and will play it if necessary. She feels very vulnerable SIL has also listed himself on dating apps in our area. He lives over 80 miles away and he is doing this to see if she is on the dating apps. Which she isn’t. My dh informed the military of both of the above because it’s all starting to feel abit sinister!

So he continues to lie and manipulate - it shows he will never change

She needs to block him everywhere - perhaps leave 1 email open that she doesn't need to check everyday

Has she served divorce papers yet?

She wants to serve divorce papers in the middle of April but he wants to wait until may. He wants her to be in a calm place before she serves papers. He also wants all the paperwork to go to his mothers ‘in case he gets deployed’. Well his CO said that SIL is not deployable. I think the papers should go to his address or to the welfare office in his barracks. Because that’s where he lives!

I’m not sure if he is being manipulative or desperate. In the week he posted a four page letter and there was one word missing ‘sorry’.
His parents have not really helped him at all and certainly haven’t listened to him because he rings my DIL up to talk to. His dad is so angry with him and is taking very infrequently to him. His mum has taken herself off on holiday and SIL sits on his own every night upset. Before everyone says it - I know it’s his fault!! But I worry he might do something drastic!

@Icecreamlover63 it's entirely possible he's lying about his parents as he's got form for this. I personally feel your daughters mental health would be better off blocking him from any contact so at least she can think straight.

@Icecreamlover63

She wants to serve divorce papers in the middle of April but he wants to wait until may. He wants her to be in a calm place before she serves papers. He also wants all the paperwork to go to his mothers ‘in case he gets deployed’. Well his CO said that SIL is not deployable. I think the papers should go to his address or to the welfare office in his barracks. Because that’s where he lives!

I’m not sure if he is being manipulative or desperate. In the week he posted a four page letter and there was one word missing ‘sorry’.
His parents have not really helped him at all and certainly haven’t listened to him because he rings my DIL up to talk to. His dad is so angry with him and is taking very infrequently to him. His mum has taken herself off on holiday and SIL sits on his own every night upset. Before everyone says it - I know it’s his fault!! But I worry he might do something drastic!

He's lying to his CO/Welfare officer, he wants to keep that house and that's why he wants to delay and have the papers to go his mum's. And wasn't there something about April and the housing being renewed? I think he's still telling the CO/whoever that there's a good chance of reconciliation. Or that's she's 'changed her mind' since the last time someone at the Base spoke with her and she'll be moving back 'in May'.

If he were deployed, any papers would be forwarded on to him. What does he think? That they're going to say "Oh, he's deployed" and toss them in the bin? He isn't even a good liar.

He wants her to be in a calm place. Phffft!! Horse shit. If he wanted her to be in a calm place, he'd leave her ALONE.

She needs to serve the papers on her timetable, in April. To do otherwise is catering to him and will give him the idea that she is still able to be influenced by him. This will in turn cause him to ramp up attempts to manipulate her and/or get her to talk to or see him.

I have no idea wbhy threads i post on don't come up on my feed.

Great advice OP above.
I hope you are ok.
Thank goodness your daughter is not falling for his endless lies.

He is not to be trusted under any circumstances.

He is a manipulative snake.

Deal with his officer and mention the taped threat.

Do not trust him at all.

What a self-pitying, snivelling toad he is! She needs to serve divorce papers when she wants. Fuck him! And it really doesn't matter if he falls off the wagon or goes on a betting spree. None of his shite is any of your responsibility.

Serve the papers as soon after first of April little shit he can do,as he’s told for once.

I heard a saying for the first time a few weeks ago and seems quite relevant here @Icecreamlover63 'Not my problem, don't make it my problem'
Good luck.

DD needs to remember he lies, he lies to his parents, to you, your husband, his CO, the army welfare, & obviously to her.
Not one thing he says should be believed
The sooner DD send the divorce papers, the sooner she is out of this soup of miserable manipulation.
Why wait ?

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.
I think my dd has to do what she wants to do. If she wants to apply in April then so be it.
It’s really peculiar SIL says one thing and then almost immediately contradicts himself! I’ve put this down to being upset but you could be right in that he lies. I’ve tried so hard to give him the benefit of doubt but each time he tells us something such as ‘I’m deployable’ it turns out from the Army that he isn’t. It’s almost like If he says it then it must be true.

I just think the whole episode has been a very sad life lesson. As a family we have learnt so much and my dd must take valuable lessons from this and one is not to be so easy going! I have been completely blown away by the kindness and support shown on this forum and above all honesty. Some people predicted what would happen and they were absolutely right.

I didn’t think I would need to be on here for advice ever again!
However my DD just received an email from SIL asking if she wanted to contribute toward the last has and electric bill. My dd hasn’t lived there for over 2 months! SIL said he had an exit amount to pay on his broadband and gas/electric bill.

He was also posting photos of himself on instagram taking a girl out for lunch on Saturday. My dd isn’t upset that he has gone out with someone in fact she is relieved 😅 but she doesn’t see why she has to pay for something she hasn’t used!
She is going to ask him to sell the furniture in the house and to use that money. I have told her to ask her liaison Sgt at the army if he gets an increment to move and get him to use that money. Honestly he is getting nastier and nastier!

Oh dear!

I'd tell her to just say "No, I haven't lived there since XXX and will not be giving you money towards your gas and electric usage".

I wouldn't volunteer anything about selling the furniture and I wouldn't be inquiring about what pay he may or may not be getting. Let him figure it out for himself.

One question though...whose name is the bill actually in? If it's in her name she and she thinks he may skip out leaving the bill unpaid, she may want to consider the other options you've listed.