Youngest Daughter in bits on phone - advice please

[Icecreamlover63]

My Youngest Daughter has just been on the phone and is extremely upset. I have seen this coming for some time but i cannot say anything about peoples relationships however i would appreciate some advice.
In 2019 my daughter was engaged and found out that her then fiancée had spent £3 on gambling in six months. He promised he would not do this again was so very repentant and she forgave hi.
In very early 2020 they got married. They moved into military housing about 8 miles away and appeared very happy.
Then they got transferred to Wiltshire and my daughter got a job at a local hospital and promptly made lots of friends and loved her new job. She joined a gym and lost some weight and was looking amazing.
Her husband's, Mother came over in October 2021 and was furious as she had just had a phone call completely out of the blue. It was the bank informing her that her sons account was overdrawn by £600. (when her son went to Afghanistan she had to have access to his accounts in case he died) and she had forgotten all about it.
The account was overdrawn because of 2 large bets of £500 each.
My daughter again lost her temper and he promised never to do it again.
Just before Christmas he took £500 out of their joint account to pay his friend as apparently he had bailiffs at the door. Then he took another £250 out a one of his friends could not see his children. My daughter said can you give those two friends the account number for our joint account so they can pay it back into the account it came out of. Guess what he said he wouldn't and said they money was going back into his sole account.
He has not spoken to my daughter most evenings and only watches football on sky. He refuses to go out at all in January and has ben very rude to her on lots of occasions.
Basically she has had enough of the gambling and the lies and just basically being ignored.

Fast forward to today!! She has just gone back to collect some of her bits and he started screaming at her and saying she was sneaky moving half of the money into her savings account before she had even spoken to him. She moved it this morning as she did not want him to be reckless and bet it away. He then started to blame her for having mental health problems and that when she was at home she was unhappy (not true) and that he had to speak to welfare in the Army to get married quarters early. They got their married quarters 3 weeks before they got married (which is the normal time line).
He has told her she always runs back to London when she is upset. Again not true she has been to us 4 times in 4 months and two of those times he was with her.

She is so upset and so distraught I honestly don't know what to do and she is driving back home now. I wish i could say she was right but I feel it would be wrong for me to say so. Please can you advise me what to do and also if you think she has made the right decision.
I do understand there is 2 sides to the story but my daughter has moved half way across the country and has not lied, she is devestated.

@ESGdance

Excellent suggestions!!

I was the 'email monitor' for a friend back in the day. I'd go through her exH's emails and tell her only the 'relevant details and leave out the abuse. Threats were reported to the police. Eventually his vitriol didn't phase her she was able to deal with his emails herself.

I also agree with not talking to him, she needs to block his number. I know that most of the time they can still text or leave a voice message but that can be easily monitored by a third party, too.

Letting him know he's 'on speaker with witnesses' if she does have to speak to him is brilliant!!!

@Icecreamlover63 how many weeks before your DD can come back?

[quote Grrrpredictivetex]@Icecreamlover63 how many weeks before your DD can come back? [/quote]
She is back home now.
She saw lots of friends at the weekend and had a great time. She is very tired and I expected that as she has been staying at her friends houses for the past three weeks. It’s been good so far. Honestly I can’t believe our year started like this. I have an ear infection now and I feel so run down. I’ve gone off and bought an iron tonic so hopefully that will
Perk me up.

I just hope the Army stick to their word and sort out this financial mediation that’s all. It would make a wealth of difference to her. Anyway she is out tonight with a school friend and is looking forward to it. Her friends are just so pleased she is home they were so worried about her. Her best two friends were at the point that when they last visited they cried in the car on the way home. They spoke to us as SIL was on a course and that’s when dh went to see her. It all stemmed from then. But I think she will be ok. I really do she told me tonight there is literally not one thing she misses about him not one. I just thought that was really sad 😢

@Icecreamlover63 I'm so pleased for you all that she's home. She's bound to have dips in mood after all she's been through. Good luck to you all.

Don't be sad, be delighted.

She is showing resilience which is fantastic.

She is accepting that what has happened was awful.

That he was not a good husband.

That she will not be defined by this.

Be delighted that it is highly unlikely she is going to ages to heal and move on.

This is so positive.

You sound utterly worn out, which is to be expected.

A tonic with iron is a great idea.
Plenty of sleep too.

Mind yourself

@billy1966

Don't be sad, be delighted.

She is showing resilience which is fantastic.

She is accepting that what has happened was awful.

That he was not a good husband.

That she will not be defined by this.

Be delighted that it is highly unlikely she is going to ages to heal and move on.

This is so positive.

You sound utterly worn out, which is to be expected.

A tonic with iron is a great idea.
Plenty of sleep too.

Mind yourself

I am exhausted it’s been a long month. But onwards and upwards x

Many of you have been following this thread and some of you were even extremely kind enough to privately message me.
Dd had a very bad night extremely upset. Doesn’t think she is good enough for anyone. Is now saying she is sad everything turned out this way. She is even thinking of phoning SIL!!!’ I’ve told her how she feels is to be expected and just to take one day at a time. But what I haven’t told her is this, I don’t think she should phone SIL. I’m not actually sure what it will achieve I think it would just extend her period of get over him. Am I right or wrong? Again I can’t tell a grown woman what to do but she has asked me what I think.

Advise her not to phone him and that she’ll be ok without him; she will be much happier without him

Sounds like such a difficult time for you all but you’ll get through it

You're right, she shouldn't phone him. I'd ask her gently what she would expect to accomplish by doing so. Does she think he will listen to her with an open mind as to the reason she left? Does she think it's going to change him into someone who doesn't lie, someone she can trust? I'd ask her to please give herself at least 48 hours to really, really think it through before doing anything.

As far as her feeling sad or upset, there is nothing 'wrong' with being upset that the marriage didn't work out. We get a notion into our heads that when we're married to a 'bad' un' we should be 100% joyful when we get 'out'. But that's wrong. Yes, it's right to feel good about that person no longer creating havoc in our lives. But it's also the 'death of the dream'. Your DD had a dream of how her life was going to be with him. She 'saw' herself as wife, mother, all stretched out before her, rosy and 'real'. But now she's facing the death of that dream. It's only natural for her to mourn that deeply! Right now she has nothing to replace it with. But she will, in time.

She doesn't feel she's 'good enough' now because she wasn't 'good enough' for her STBX to want to change for her. She's taking all the blame for the failure on herself, because she wasn't 'enough'. She isn't in the mental place to believe that it was HIM, not her. We all like to believe that we can control our destiny, our 'world'. And that when we can't, it's our own fault. It's a very painful (and gradual) realization that we are just a little cog in a great big world and that our control over things and people around us is pretty limited. We have to learn to be happy that we can only control ourselves and our reactions to the people/places/events around us.

Bottom line is, her feelings are completely natural. And best 'picked apart' and put to rest with a qualified counselor. As mums of adult children, they only listen to us so far before "It was different when you were my age, it's not the same for me/my generation" kicks in.

I have been exactly where she is. And exactly where you are. I wish I could give you both a very unmumsnetty hug.

SIL is phoning her tomorrow. I’m not sure why and neither is she.

I know that counselling is being arranged by the Army for her and I believe and know this will help her.

The money aspect is being sorted out by them too.

He is in our area tomorrow as he is up to watch a match and dd is making it clear she doesn’t want to meet up with him. I’m just concerned in case he tried to talk her into meeting him. He is an accomplished liar so goodness only knows what he will say

@Icecreamlover63

SIL is phoning her tomorrow. I’m not sure why and neither is she. I know that counselling is being arranged by the Army for her and I believe and know this will help her. The money aspect is being sorted out by them too. He is in our area tomorrow as he is up to watch a match and dd is making it clear she doesn’t want to meet up with him. I’m just concerned in case he tried to talk her into meeting him. He is an accomplished liar so goodness only knows what he will say

I'd assume that's why he's calling her tomorrow, to try and get her to meet up with him before she has a chance to think about it. Sort of "I'm at X place, come meet me right now", or worse "I'm outside the house". She really, really needs to NOT do that! In fact, she needs to not answer the phone.

Is there a reason she won't block communications with him? At this point she'd be better off not making herself so vulnerable to his sob stories and lies. If she insists there is some form of open channel, she'd be better off using email. That way she can read at her leisure, when she's feeling strong and calm, rather than a jarring phone call or text message popping up on her screen. She could even have you or her dad 'screen' the emails and only tell her what she needs to know in unemotional terms, without mentioning any emotional blackmail.

What w weekend!!
My dd met SIL for breakfast yesterday. She wanted to meet him. She wanted to tell him how she felt. She was in for a huge shock.
SIL has not bet for 50 days he sat down showed her his bank statements and explained he is attending counselling, showed her the emails with appointments confirmation.
She sat and listened and felt sad she feels so bad. She now feels confused to the point where she has asked me what I think!
SIL does not want to split up he wants to give things a go he has given her full access to his bank accounts and has told her he will do anything to give it another chance. He has taken full responsibility for his actions and has written to dh and myself apologising for his actions and for any hurt he has caused us and also our dd.
He said his dad is not taking to him and blames him for everything saying that SIL has destroyed everything!

I feel I should give my dd an opinion because she has asked for one but I’m confused too. I have never been in this Poland I really want some advice myself. I’m going home after work and would appreciate if you could help me before then.

Wow. Well, I'll start by saying I'm very much 'once bitten twice shy' and I find it almost impossible to give a second chance to someone who has betrayed my faith in them. I can forgive, but I don't forget. He's broken DD's faith. She needs to decide if she can fully trust him again or if she'll be content to live with that little niggling doubt in the years to come. And living that way can be so destructive to one's 'self'.

Showing bank statements is all well and good. But most addicts can and will stay 'sober', sometimes for great lengths of time, when there is something they want. And he wants her back so right now he has great incentive to not gamble. Also, there are other ways of getting money than taking it out of one's bank, as your lovely DD knows. Pawn shops, loans, credit cards, etc are all tricks to conceal habits. So he's shown her a 'snapshot' by showing her his bank account. But is he also willing to show her his credit reports? His bank statements for the last, say, 6 months? That will give a better picture of his past, and possibly his future.

It's very tricky for us as parents to give our 'opinion'. We aren't experts and we speak from our hearts with our 1st priority being to protect our child. Also, you love(d) your SiL so you want to have faith in him. Add in that you don't want to unwittingly influence DD and have it all blow up in her face. It's almost impossible to see a situation like this with cool logic. All I can suggest is that DD needs to speak to a counselor, preferably one who has experience with addiction. She needs to speak to someone who will respond with their 'head', not their 'heart'.

But I will also say that IMHO if she does decide to 'give it a go' she should NOT move back in with him. It needs to be 'prove yourself to me, then I'll decide' situation. Right now it's a 'one swallow does not a summer make' situation. He needs to prove himself to her 'from a distance' and for months, not knowing for certain whether or not she'll come back. He needs to want to stop his addiction for himself not because he's motivated by 'keeping her'. Because someone who stops 'using' (gambling) for/to keep another person invariably fails.

It's a different situation, but I have a brother who is a recovering alcoholic, sober now for almost 7 years. He tried stopping for every reason under the sun but until he really, really did it completely and only for himself he failed, every time.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but think I get the gist. If it was my daughter, my advice would be to do nothing for six months. Let’s the husband prove himself. I think your daughter should live away from her husband, but stay in touch.

How long did he give himself, again, to win her back? I think he'd been predicting 3 months, and saying this to others. I remember typing that this was essentially arrogant bollocks and that it had no bearing on a realistic acceptance that things weren't just going to dance along to the way he wanted them and stick - addiction, relationship, getting off the hook. 3 months and no real bother.

So he's 50 days in. What makes you think he's had a lightbulb of reassessing epiphany here?

Ah, just checked - it was 4 months.
He has not given up this plan. Him meeting her is one little bit of it. The plan still works on the premises of wearing her defences down.

If she is serious about making decisions, whatever they are, she needs space and separation for her to be her and have independent viewpoints, not still a her n' him composite.

Her feelings, resulting from this meeting, are sadness, feeling bad, feeling confused. She no longer trusts her own instincts and wants you to step in with an opinion.

His role in the meeting was very active (his goal: persuasive). He doesn't want to split up. He wants this that and the other. She can come in on His accounts. Him Him Him. Did he want her perspective at all? There are so many posts that describe how it was all about him, and will still be all about him while recovery is on a tentative footing (clue - it would still be very much on a tentative footing at 4 months).

I'm going to calm down now, but please for the love of Benjy, read between the lines with this latest pull of the strings.

He thinks if he stops gambling then its a done deal.
Leaving aside the lying & the gambling. What about abandoning her at the seaside? what about not one affectionate text in 6 months? what about being pressured & bullied regards to the cleaning the bathroom ?

The relationship was one sided, it was him the abusive, self-interested dominator, & she the abused wife.
The relationship is broken, & not only by the gambling.
I your shoes, I would encourage DD to stay well away from this manipulative snake.
He may have been a nice young lad, but lying, stealing, gambling & abuse have wiped away that image.

I agree I don’t think it was just the gambling either. He did ask what dd wanted and she told him. She only ever wanted honesty and kindness. I’m going to say my piece tonight I will be calm but she asked me and therefore has to accept how I feel.
I think she should put him on the back burner and go on holiday next week and have a great time. Just enjoy being away and having fun. Then when she gets back have a couple of meals with him and talk some more BUT BE IN CHARGE TELL HIM WHAT SHE WANTS, and how she feels. Then make a decision based on that. There is no rush at all.

I’m glad he has not had a bet and I’m glad he is being positive and talking politely and calmly. Maybe the counselling has had a positive effect. But my dd is my priority and only she can make this decision as she was the only person in this situation.

It's all bullshit.

He's just saying what she wants to hear. He's only done it because he can tell that she might waver and go back to him. And as soon as she does, he'll be back to the same old shit again, just as he was lying in a phone call to your DH days beforehand. Chances are that he's still lying now. Taking out dodgy credit to pay for gambling that won't show up until he empties her wages out of the account again or takes out a credit card in her name.

She needs to be no contact with him. And you need to tell her that he's only saying this because he wants her income. That's what he loves, the money she has access to, not her.

You have to take sides. Your daughter's. If you don't, he will take her again.

I have had a long talk to dd tonight. She is sticking by her decision not to go back to him! She said it was very hard yesterday and she felt awful having to repeat herself she also felt abit confused but she just couldn’t go there again. There was so much sadness and upset and raw emotions in her voice she really cannot see anyway back. SIL mother has been helping him by advising him on how to
Talk to my dd. So my dd is writing to her to explain why she left and that there is no going back. I’ve suggested that she doesn’t answer the phone and only talks if necessary and she said she thinks it’s a good idea.
Thank you all for being so kind x

SIL's mother is 'helping' him by telling him exactly what shit he needs to spout to convince her to ignore her very sensible instincts that this relationship is completely over for her own protection.

Her letter will give the woman all the ammunition she needs for the abuser to plan his next charm offensive/borderline harassment/stalking. Unless it says 'It's over, I will not change my mind, I do not want to hear from him ever again and will not be responding to any further communications from him, you or his father'.

I'm so glad she decided to stick with her decision. I think now that she's been 'tested' by him and has made up her mind despite it, that she'll find it easier to stick to her resolve.

I don't know if there would be much point in writing to her MiL but if it makes DD feel better, so be it.. Actions speak louder than words and I understand his mother wanting her son to be happy. But not at your DD's expense.

But yes, it's time to block/no answer further communications from him AND his parents.

@billy1966

OP,

You sound like such a kind measured woman but kindly meant, be very careful.

You loved a phantom.
You do NOT know this man.

He is hugely damaged and dangerous.

He is liar.
He is a thief.
He is an arch manipulator of your daughter, you and his parents.

NOTHING from his mouth should be believed.

His is an angry abusive man.

Leaving her somewhere so that she was scared is not normal, it is abusive.
Completely separate to his gambling.

You need to put aside your love for this ghost and start focusing on the lying toad your daughter married.

He'd love kids.
Selfish twat.
Of course he would.
Tie your daughter to him and leave her in periodic poverty.

OP, I would also start thinking about the future YOU want.

The next 30 years are going to be miserable for you if she is with him.

You need to pick a side and make it clear to her how wrong he has been in his treatment of her.

That he isn't a man that can be EVER trusted.

That to bring children into a marriage with a lying thieving abusive man would be the height of stupidity.

She needs to go to GA for families to hear the full truth of what life is like with a gambler.

She is beyond lucky that she has found out now.

That he would involve her in fraud tells you EXACTLY the type of character he is.

He would knowingly drag her down with him.

If she wants a really hard, miserable life, looking over her shoulder, afraid of the post, her phone ringing, the knock on the door from people chasing money, you tell her go right ahead and have further dealings with him.

As for him doing some sessions and he'll be ok after a few months?

Preposterous.

Recovery involves hard work for years.
Years where the addict is 100% focused on THEIR recovery.

EVERYTHING is about THEIR recovery.

Not someone to be in a relationship at all.

The bottom line is, you need to tell your daughter in clear unambiguous language that having anything further to do with this man will be throwing her life away, and you want her to be clear with her, that that is what she will be doing.

If she refuses to go to the GA families because she doesn't want to know, that is denial.

Support her OP, but don't try and fix this.

She is a married woman, and adult.

Treat her like an adult that needs straight talking to.

Talk to her so that she knows she is making decisions that will influence the rest of her life and she needs to own that.

Her choices will ultimately be on her.

Kind, but tough love is required IMO.

This x 1000

Sadly I've seen many many people stay with addicts who are 'in recovery'...
It is YEARS of heavy psychological work..... And as this poster rightly says.... A 100 per cent of the focus is on them... Not their kids /wives or career.

And then they relapse... And then the families are plunged back into cycles of addiction.... The lies /the money issues /the focus on gambling /drink....

It's an utterly grim way to live.

One pal is 30 years dowb the line with an alcoholic.... He's been to more AA appts than you can imagine... He's been made bankrupt twice and he's been in rehab (private -tens of thousands).

They will NEVER EVER be out of the woods...

@ChargingBuck

She said he had laid his soul bare and it’s the mark of a man and could my daughter at least talk to him on Monday.

Oh gag me with a spoon & pass the sick bucket.
What a trumped up load of melodramatic codswallop.

Do you reckon all this noble, manly soul-baring included a full list of his actual transgression (yeah, we’re back to your bullet points), as opposed to his little list of all the ways it wasn’t his fault really, & anyway, he’s going to “Be Cured In Four Months so stop hassling me, also do you have £30 mummy, as I’m a bit inexplicably skint” …?

This has been going on for years.
Some engineered, performative bleating is NOT the quick fix his flying monkey mother so desperately pretends it is.
The only fix is years of therapy, unwavering commitment, & full responsibility.
Your SiL & his mother reckon that “responsibility” entails saying some words, & hoping everyone, including themselves, are convinced by them.
That is an absurd example of magical thinking.
It’s from the same school of intellectual rigour as touching wood for superstition, or saying a nervous, hopeful “good boy!” to a dog you already know is preparing to be anything but …
We all do it, it’s very human, but you cannot afford to buy into this nonsense when your DD’s entire world is at stake.

I’m going to translate MiL’s batshit sentence for you now because I hope DD will see it:
She said he had laid his soul bare and it’s the mark of a man and could my daughter at least talk to him on Monday.
”I’ve been covering this up for more years than I can admit, & am exhausted & at the end of my tether. I cannot take any more, & I especially cannot take the social stigma of any of this coming out. The best outcome for ME is to pretend I’m not my son’s enabler by pushing my family's co-dependency onto my DiL. Then we can all pretend it’s hunky dory, we can pretend that my son will be Fixed In Four Months, & when he isn’t … well, at least it’s no longer me being first in the line of fire, that will be his wife.”

As @MotherofTerriers observed – DD’s primary need right now is enough space & time to clear her head, & decide what she, not her inlaws, wants.
This family is actively colluding to ensure she does not get it.
She is allowed to feel angry about that. She is allowed space & time. She does not need to kowtow to their FOG.

This, too!