To be really enjoying Boris Johnson's downfall Part 2

[ClaudineClare]

A follow on thread from

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4457488-to-be-really-enjoying-boris-johnson-s-downfall?msgid=114425763#114425763

"Act with decency and honour" - like we're all Knights of the Round Table. Myths, stories and legend.

"look down on" anyone isn't part of my understanding although I'm aware that some people may "look down on" others. it's not something I do.

Off to bed myself now - more handy stuff to do tomorrow :).

It’s a mark of just how sleazy we’ve become when decency and honour are sneered at - no wonder we’ve ended up with Johnson.

``8In any case, as I have said before, the people charged in almost every case of breaking covid regulations are those who organised the party or other event concerned.*

The people charged are also those in charge of the building or organisation concerned, which puts Johnson pretty squarely in the frame for both the parties that we know about and the ones that have yet to come to light.

Agree that there's strong prima facie evidence of misconduct in public office

Even the Met would regard that as ridiculous, disproportionate overkill for attending parties. It would be laughed out of court. In any case, it is difficult to bring successful prosecutions under the law (as Theresa May found to her relief) as much in the act is highly subjective

Self-evidently, it wouldn't be for attending parties. The fact that there were so many going on within his office would be a factor, but you have to look at the totality of his conduct - acting in a manner that demonstrates that he believes he is above the rules his government made, effectively sending out a message during a pandemic that keeping to the rules doesn't matter, lying to Parliament, lying over and over and over again to the country, getting his colleagues to blackmail MPs into supporting him ...

All of that's before you start taking into account the fat contracts for cronies, the Paterson mess, the flat refurbishment scandal, the support for bullying ministers, the PPE mess, the care home deaths, and much, much more.

Noo, he's been a sloppy shit for ever. Pre covid. I'm sure two kids and a pandemic doesn't help but really, he's just not got the vigour needed to understand the job. I read his aides couldn't keep him focused on any agenda at meetings, he just wanted banter and then to walk off.

Certainly when he was mayor reports were clear that he was regarded as a lazy sod who left all the work to everyone else whilst he concentrated on funnelling public money to his associates on ridiculous projects like the Garden Bridge.

I think part of it is that the expenses scandal and vitriol that came after puts people off. There's more money and less hate in other jobs.

Morning all! Let's hope we all manage to get through the day without being ambushed by a cake.

@Flowertailbird

Morning all! Let's hope we all manage to get through the day without being ambushed by a cake.

Actually getting ambushed by cake sounds like a great day

Sadly though I'm still stuck at home with covid so I'm not hopeful!

True!! Cake ambushes do sound ace!!

@Flowertailbird

Morning all! Let's hope we all manage to get through the day without being ambushed by a cake.

I'd love to be ambushed by cake!

Isolating with covid.

Will pass the time today hoping a huge fresh cream cake comes and knocks down my front door to insist I scoff it

I want to be ambushed by a slice of Battenburg and punched in the face by the surrounding Marzipan. Things only dreams are made of. Oh, and politics.

DePfeffoff
The people charged are also those in charge of the building or organisation concerned, which puts Johnson pretty squarely in the frame for both the parties that we know about and the ones that have yet to come to light.

By that reckoning, university Vice Chancellors should have been fined for all those student parties during lockdown. It just doesn't happen like that. It was normally party organisers who got fined.

By that reckoning, university Vice Chancellors should have been fined for all those student parties during lockdown.

Sorry, that argument is rubbish. Even on Campus Universities the buildings are spread out and the VC won't know what is going on in most buildings. However, I would imagine that they should and would have issued Covid compliant rules and any student or staff not in compliance could be disciplined.

But Johnson and chums are first claiming that the Downing Street premises are extensive and rambling and that they can't know what is going on, but when caught out it's all their home and all one bubble. It can't be both, and the Cabinet Office is most certainly not a place that Carrie Johnson lives or works in.

Peregrina:
But Johnson and chums are first claiming that the Downing Street premises are extensive and rambling and that they can't know what is going on, but when caught out it's all their home and all one bubble. It can't be both

Why not? Some people live in huge, rambling premises - residential homes, palaces, etc

A household is a bubble and a workplace can be a bubble but you can't mix the 2 bubbles or DC could have played and had parties with their school bubble (same as workplace bubble).

@User764832

A household is a bubble and a workplace can be a bubble but you can't mix the 2 bubbles or DC could have played and had parties with their school bubble (same as workplace bubble).

So what happens if you live in your workplace?

Most of the people who work at Downing Street do not live there so can't be in the household bubble. If I live somewhere and I have contractors in, I can't start partying with them because they work in my house

By that reckoning, university Vice Chancellors should have been fined for all those student parties during lockdown. It just doesn't happen like that. It was normally party organisers who got fined.

If the Vice Chancellor had shown up at one of the parties and stayed for a quick drink without apparently telling anyone to stop then yes absolutely!

Most of the people who work at Downing Street do not live there so can't be in the household bubble.

Agreed, but the relevant point is that the Johnsons live there - in the same building in which 170 unrelated people work. The PM, at least, is likely to be moving between his work bubble and domestic bubble at least daily. The covid regulations make no provision for this type of scenario.

@ThinkAboutItTomorrow

By that reckoning, university Vice Chancellors should have been fined for all those student parties during lockdown. It just doesn't happen like that. It was normally party organisers who got fined.

If the Vice Chancellor had shown up at one of the parties and stayed for a quick drink without apparently telling anyone to stop then yes absolutely!

But in the vast majority of cases, it was only people who organised parties who were fined - it was rare to fine those who just attended. In fact, it would hardly have been possible for the police to issue fixed penalty notices to the sometimes hundreds who were there - the guests would simply have left before the forms had been completed and issued.

I don't care about bubbles etc.

There should have been a culture of total adherence to the rules and zero tolerance for breaking them. No one in Downing Street should have even contemplated a social gathering of any kind.

This was just after the Cummings debacle so they should have understood how pissed off everyone was at the idea the rule setters weren't following the rules.

They are either stupid or don't care about leading by example. Or a bit of both.

In fact, it would hardly have been possible for the police to issue fixed penalty notices to the sometimes hundreds who were there - the guests would simply have left before the forms had been completed and issued

This is not an argument that they shouldn't be fined, just that (in your head) they potentially couldn't be fined.

I am quite happy for the organiser of the Downing Street parties to get a £10k fine - in line with what was done with other people - AND for those attending to get a FPN. There is no chance of the attendees of those parties running away befopre the forms are completed.

To the people trying to defend Johnson here is a - you are defending the indefensible and look silly.

@Florianus

Most of the people who work at Downing Street do not live there so can't be in the household bubble.

Agreed, but the relevant point is that the Johnsons live there - in the same building in which 170 unrelated people work. The PM, at least, is likely to be moving between his work bubble and domestic bubble at least daily. The covid regulations make no provision for this type of scenario.

They live in a flat, you can have separate work places or residences in one building. Do you think all the people in a block of flats can claim to be one household? Do you think my solicitor can claim to be in a bubble with the building society that operates on the ground floor of his building? Can the caretaker claim he is in a bubble with 2000 kids who go to my local school because he lives there?

I'm assuming that the office junior in number 10 can't pop into Boris and Carrie's kitchen if there is a queue for the kettle downstairs and they fancy a cuppa.

Carrie Johnson didn't work in the offices at No 10 so even if he tries to make that argument it doesn't cover her or her interior designer.

They live in a home that is their flat, not the whole building.