To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

[hehimshehertheythem]

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

Interesting that it apparently causes unacceptable distress to refer to a trans person by anything other than the name of their chosen gender, and yet simultaneously it's fine to call women 'cisgender' against their wishes.

Isn't it.

Yes, well, quite. Almost like women are lesser, isn't it?

@Baystard

Interesting that it apparently causes unacceptable distress to refer to a trans person by anything other than the name of their chosen gender, and yet simultaneously it's fine to call women 'cisgender' against their wishes.

I was once told in a Facebook discussion that that's fair because we're the ones in a place of privilege and basically no one cares if we don't like it 🤷🏻‍♀️

Pronouns are a signal that someone is either being coerced or supports an extreme and potentially dangerous ideology

Or haven’t thought about it beyond ‘be kind’ or ‘it’s fashionable’..

I sincerely apologise to anyone who may have been offended by my previous comment. If I had known that it was such a controversial word I would never have used it. I have reported my own comment as I said previously and mnhq are going to review it. I have read all the comments responding and realise that I was wrong. Please take comfort in knowing that your responses have helped to educate me and I will never use the term again.

@hehimshehertheythem

To show support to who? My colleagues and friends who identify as a different gender or genders (or none) and want to be recognised as such. It’s respectful.

Your company that asked you to do it? Nobody asked me to do it. My company didn’t ask me to do it. I have my own mind and it was my decision based on what I know and who I associate with.

The male dominated world that you are an agreeable female? Really?! 🥱

Who are we supporting? Please refer to my answer to your first question.

I think pronouns are good for so many reasons. My post was about it being wrong to mandate it, should be voluntarily. It’s so clear when companies or people are disingenuous with why they do things / probably why we end up with threads like these where people get their knickers in a twist!

And for completeness, the use of pronouns is not about sexuality or sexual orientation, it’s about gender identity and asking people to see you as you see yourself. What’s so hard in that?

And for completeness, the use of pronouns is not about sexuality or sexual orientation, it’s about gender identity and asking people to see you as you see yourself. What’s so hard in that?

I don't choose to identify with stereotypes applied to my sex.

probably why we end up with threads like these where people get their knickers in a twist!

That is a mysogynistic statement and actually evidences why we need to continue to protect female rights and spaces. Insults when people don't see things the way you want them to are invariably referencing females in a derogatory way, like you have here.

And for completeness, the use of pronouns is not about sexuality or sexual orientation, it’s about gender identity and asking people to see you as you see yourself. What’s so hard in that?

What's so hard in understanding that it's not about asking people to see you as you see yourself, it's about demanding that people change societal structures which have been set up to try to provide some level of protection and work toward some level of equality for a disadvantaged group. If the way you want to be seen creates a situation which causes significant material problems for other people then you do not necessarily have the right to be seen as you want - or to get people to pretend that if they don't really see you like you want (you don't actually get to police's other's perceptions).

was once told in a Facebook discussion that that's fair because we're the ones in a place of privilege and basically no one cares if we don't like it

Hashtag bekind! I don't actually care what they say, but the whole concept is ideological. It's like being called a heretic, it only makes sense if you are a gender ideologue. They can't see outside their own ideology.

When someone asks me to see and address them as a woman despite my eyes, ears, brain and common sense telling me otherwise that is an issue. It’s gaslighting and potentially dangerous. Dulling women’s senses as to who is a man or not directly compromising women’s safety. As well as being bloody confusing and disingenuous.

@VivX What an absolute waste of company time and money......and to display it publicly.....what???

I don't think the Myers Briggs is good. The big 5 personality model is simpler and I think better. Still, that's besides the point. You shouldn't have to show it publicly anywhere. There is something very intrusive about an employers asking you to the test in the first place.

And for completeness, the use of pronouns is not about sexuality or sexual orientation, it’s about gender identity and asking people to see you as you see yourself. What’s so hard in that?

You don't get to choose how others see you. You have no control over that. None of us does. Nor should we. Other people's thoughts are their own. What they see is what they see. You cannot compel people to see the world the way that fits in with your ideology, or expect people to automatically be up for validating your feelings.

Gender identity doesn't provably exist except as a bunch of personality traits and stereotypes. Why should anyone think they have the right to make other people change their view, the law and the language they use on the basis of that?

You can ask though. And people may choose to comply. But the vast majority of them still won't actually at all be seeing you the way you see yourself. They will be complying to be kind or because they're afraid they'll be flamed if they don't.

Myers Briggs reminds me of those personality quizzes in teen magazines. I get that adolescents feel the constant need to define and redefine themselves and loudly proclaim the tribe/type they belong to, but surely adults should really have grown out of that?

it’s about gender identity and asking people to see you as you see yourself. What’s so hard in that?

Because you are expecting others to affirm a belief you hold that many others don't. I don't expect someone with religious belief to require me to affirm their particular religious belief.

Like a customer or a colleague will forward my email and say something like ‘I emailed Sam and he suggested I ask you…’ or ‘Sam is having trouble with this, could you help him?’ Yes, it’s technically possible to send those emails and avoid pronouns altogether but it very quickly becomes clunky and awkward to do so.

“I emailed Sam who suggested…”

“Sam is having trouble with this, could you help resolve the problem?”

Yeah, really awkward and clunky

This whole “if I do it, it makes it easier for others to do it” is absolute bollocks. It suggests that anyone wanting to have non-standard pronouns used about them must be timid little things without the clout or confidence to do it without an army of “allies” acting as a human shield against any comment it might generate.

To think that, you must have been under a rock if you haven’t noticed that policies at every level from national downwards have been changed to accommodate transpeople, and mostly to the disadvantage of women and girls. The Scottish Parliament’s definition of a woman is now “anyone who identifies as one”; rapists are transferred to women’s prisons if they claim a female gender identity; the police have arrested people, recorded ‘hate incidents’ against people, started to investigate people for the heinous crimes of tweeting photos of suffragette-colour ribbons, retweeting a limerick, raising concerns over a male-born Girl Guiding leader posting inappropriate images on social media; the census placed as much weight on self-described “gender identity” as it did to sex; schools will validate a pupil’s new ‘gender identity’ without informing the parents; one of the foremost women of colour campaigning against FGM was piled on for using the word “female” about it…and so on, and on, and on.

This is as far from the “most oppressed” narrative as it’s possible to get. Against that background I doubt Derek in Marketing needs you shoving a “she/her” in your email signature to feel emboldened to do the same.

@DipYourPenisInMyBeaker
"...it’s about gender identity and asking people to see you as you see yourself. What’s so hard in that?"

I can't look at a penis is a women's changing room and think that's it part of a woman. Why should I have to lie about what women are to please a man?

I think so it's easier for colleagues who want to change their pronouns. I guess it's just being an ally for people who might be struggling and need a little support.

.* I guess it's just being an ally for people who might be struggling and need a little support.*

In what way are you being an ally to people who are struggling by demanding that everyone declares their pronouns? What of the person struggling with their gender identity? What of the women trying to conceal their sex to avoid harassment? Why are companies deliberately flouting the Yogyakarta Principles; principles laid down to ensure that the LGBT community does not suffer transphobia and homophobia in the workplace? Mandatory pronouns are transphobic!

I hate the word ally its so charged with ideology now, its so stonewall, it reminds of something like children of the corn or invasion of the body snatchers, like theres this sinister group urging you to be one of us, one of us, one of us, one of us.

its so cringe and such unnatural language, ally, assigned at birth, cis etc if they really dont want to be seen as a cult they should stop acting and talking like one and stop bullying and using coercion.

@PiggieWiggie

I think so it's easier for colleagues who want to change their pronouns. I guess it's just being an ally for people who might be struggling and need a little support.

What about all the people who are scared of gender ideology and are therefore struggling and needing support. How are you judging who is and who is not worthy of your support?

[quote DipYourPenisInMyBeaker]@hehimshehertheythem

To show support to who? My colleagues and friends who identify as a different gender or genders (or none) and want to be recognised as such. It’s respectful.

Your company that asked you to do it? Nobody asked me to do it. My company didn’t ask me to do it. I have my own mind and it was my decision based on what I know and who I associate with.

The male dominated world that you are an agreeable female? Really?! 🥱

Who are we supporting? Please refer to my answer to your first question.

I think pronouns are good for so many reasons. My post was about it being wrong to mandate it, should be voluntarily. It’s so clear when companies or people are disingenuous with why they do things / probably why we end up with threads like these where people get their knickers in a twist!

And for completeness, the use of pronouns is not about sexuality or sexual orientation, it’s about gender identity and asking people to see you as you see yourself. What’s so hard in that?[/quote]
@DipYourPenisInMyBeaker To show support to who? My colleagues and friends who identify as a different gender or genders (or none) and want to be recognised as such. It’s respectful.

You're naive if you think they appreciate it. I guarantee you that they laugh at you behind your back that you are so easy to brainwash and so naive.

I think pronouns are good for so many reasons.

Really? Name just one (1) other reason other than 'it shows support (it doesn't)'? Have you not read the links that show there is NO good reason, indeed that it hinders women? Have you not read those links that show it sets women back and penalises them? It's a backward step for equality of the sexes and only hurts and hinders, there is no upside.

And for completeness, the use of pronouns is not about sexuality or sexual orientation, it’s about gender identity and asking people to see you as you see yourself.

You don't get it. The point is gender 'identity' has absolutely no place in the workplace. We go to work. No to talk about our 'identity'. Gender identity has absolutely no place in the workforce.

The people saying it helps them to know if the person is a man or a woman are missing the obvious point - it doesn't tell you that - if someone writes "she/her" it could just as easily be a man who thinks he's a woman, rather than an actual woman.

I think whilst many make valid points against, we do live in a time where being more inclusive is desired for the business community - you are just going to have to get with the times and state your pronouns and respect others.

I hope you will respect mine.

Kind Regards,
Findwen
2nd Assistant Junior Staffer

His Holiness/My Worshipful Master

@FSPea

The people saying it helps them to know if the person is a man or a woman are missing the obvious point - it doesn't tell you that - if someone writes "she/her" it could just as easily be a man who thinks he's a woman, rather than an actual woman.

Then it helps to know what pronouns to use for them.