To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

[hehimshehertheythem]

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

This must surely have been a parody.

No, it wasn't just one person, it was a thing.

Someone at my work is she/her on Monday Tuesday and Friday but they/them on Wednesday and Thursday. Which always makes me wonder what if I wrote an email referring to that individual as she on a Tuesday, but it wasn't read until Wednesday when that person is now they?

What if they take a transatlantic flight on Thursday night?

@Chrysanthemum5

Someone at my work is she/her on Monday Tuesday and Friday but they/them on Wednesday and Thursday. Which always makes me wonder what if I wrote an email referring to that individual as she on a Tuesday, but it wasn't read until Wednesday when that person is now they?

I've seen this mentioned (in SM, not RL) and always wondered how bloody self-absorbed you must be to declare something like that.

I've seen others using she/they and specifying that it is not OK for people to 'just' use she. No. Both have to be used, alternatively or in similar proportions...

@steff13

I saw a woman on Twitter (I think) who had her pronouns as she/him. Which is just confusing.

Good for him. She was obviously taking the piss

Also, like@sashagabadonwas brought up that it was rude to refer to someone as 'she' in their absence so their name/they feels more polite to me!

That's nuts though. So once you've mentioned their name, you go on using the name for the rest of what you're saying, in order to avoid using the terribly rude 'she'?

'I saw Sandra today. Sandra said Sandra had just been in holiday to Mallorca. Sandra didn't like it much. Sandra said Sandra got terribly sunburnt and the locals weren't very friendly to Sandra.'

Doesn't really work, does it? It's not polite, it's bonkers and impractical! That's why we have pronouns.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Pronouns mi/ow

I'd have thought they were feed/me.

I thought Not/Dog would be more apt!

Doesn't really work, does it? It's not polite, it's bonkers and impractical! That's why we have pronouns.

If it means I don't have to call a male person she/her or be accused of "misgendering" due to someone's power trip. I'll avoid pronouns however I can.

[quote girljulian]@HollowTalk actually I do have my title before my name, but my title is Dr so it doesn’t help me at all! It’s amazing how many people will see Dr Julian Lastname and reply “Dear Mr Lastname…”[/quote]
probably a blessing in disguise.

I have a very old fashioned name that many people have never heard of so sometimes I get assumed to be male, people treat you very differently if they are sexist.

best to break the ice without them instantly knowing in your profession I would have thought.

@crazyjinglist

Also, like@sashagabadonwas brought up that it was rude to refer to someone as 'she' in their absence so their name/they feels more polite to me!

That's nuts though. So once you've mentioned their name, you go on using the name for the rest of what you're saying, in order to avoid using the terribly rude 'she'?

'I saw Sandra today. Sandra said Sandra had just been in holiday to Mallorca. Sandra didn't like it much. Sandra said Sandra got terribly sunburnt and the locals weren't very friendly to Sandra.'

Doesn't really work, does it? It's not polite, it's bonkers and impractical! That's why we have pronouns.

I can see that you don't frequent the more grim-faced threads of the feminist boards very much

Also, like@sashagabadonwas brought up that it was rude to refer to someone as 'she' in their absence so their name/they feels more polite to me!

That's nuts though. So once you've mentioned their name, you go on using the name for the rest of what you're saying, in order to avoid using the terribly rude 'she'?

'I saw Sandra today. Sandra said Sandra had just been in holiday to Mallorca. Sandra didn't like it much. Sandra said Sandra got terribly sunburnt and the locals weren't very friendly to Sandra.'

Doesn't really work, does it? It's not polite, it's bonkers and impractical! That's why we have pronouns.

@crazyjinglist

I don't think the occasions that might trigger a rebuke from Mother were ever normal conversation. It was normally in response to childish whining and complaining "She pinched me first and She spilt tea on my homework and anyway She's being really mean..."

Which could reasonably refer to three different She's hence the "Who's She?" question/rebuke.

@Kotatsu

Interesting story. I guess I have always been fortunate that in all levels and years of work I have never been discriminated against because of my gender.

But how would you know? Part of gender (ie. the social treatment of a person according to their sex) is expectations, and it's an unconscious bias - you wouldn't know if, had you been male, you would have been considered for internal promotion, been offered a higher grade, been estimated as achieving better for your bonus assessment, or just had your CV put in the circular file as not good enough.

Because I have always been happy, felt satisfied with my achievements and been suitably paid and promoted. There are many factors when it comes to gender bias in the workplace. For example in science it is easy to get left behind your male peers if you take mat leave. Shared mat leave helps but unfortunately can't overcome some of the basics in biology in those early months.

*Interestingly some of the best research on sex bias has come from transgender people. There was a study on gender bias a few years ago on Radio 4, where they had looked at the treatment of transitioning people in the workplace.

FTM transitioners reported being treated more favourably than before, with a greater assumption of competence.

MTF reported the opposite and fared worse in their career post transition.*

Of course it is possible that some of the problems transitioners may find in relation to their careers may be less related to whichever sex they transitioned you and more related to behaviours accompanying the transition, time off sick for surgery or other treatments, demands around pronouns etc and generally being preoccupied with self rather than work.

I can't get worked up about this when there are other more pressing issues in the world

/////

It is wholly possible to want to challenge this and push back - no one here is "worked up" - whilst doing the same on numerous issues.

And if you take time to dig a bit further you'll see there are some good reasons for challenging this tosh.

I can't get worked up about this when there are other more pressing issues in the world

I happen to think it's part of an extremely pressing issue. Besides, I have plenty of room in my brain to get 'worked up' an enormous variety of things .

If it means I don't have to call a male person she/her or be accused of "misgendering" due to someone's power trip. I'll avoid pronouns however I can

Oh yes, I'm with you there. I would very happily (and pointedly) repeat ad infinitum the name of, for example, a TW rapist or abuser of women in order to avoid either calling them 'she' or getting in trouble for 'misgendering' (i.e. correctly sexing) them.

I'm female, happily female and massively prefer not to make my gender clear in any communication where it is not either evident or essential. Especially when I was a city lawyer... so much less rubbish happens if people assume you're male.

I will never put my pronouns on my email, as soon as I encounter someone who does its a great signifier that, that person is either dim (to put it politely) or virtue signaling.
No place for it in work. Your there to do your job, not to compel others into an ideology that actively harms women and girls.
Seriously how narcissistic do you have to be to force others to refer to you in a certain way when your not even there?

@TheBeardedVulture

Oh and for people saying pronoun announcement promotes inclusivity- how would you feel if a colleague decided to announce their religious affiliation in their professional email signature?

Because that is how I regard email pronouns. I don’t believe in gender identity and seeing colleagues put their ( obvious) pronouns in their sigs is fucking weird.

This^

I dont care about your religion, I am a christian and I am in no doubt you dont care about mine, I will not talk to you about god and will keep it to myself and you will not talk to me about gender woo woo and keep it to yourself.

that is what being in a tolerant society means.

I started a thread earlier about being requested to do exactly this in my new job (sorry OP, didn't realise one already existed!)

Reading the comments are really interesting and helpful for me, thank you!

@EishetChayil

Political propaganda.

I recruit, and automatically discount CVs from anyone with pronouns in their signature. I don't want to work with someone who jumps on bandwagons.

I want to work for your company!

I get so fed up with filling out application forms that ask for my gender, I am so tempted to tick "prefer not to say" if they have a box to write your own I make it clear I am female sex and I dont believe in gender. but so few forms actually have a box to type in.

I have given up on applications entirely if they are absolutely full of the gender woo woo, pages and pages as I dont want to work for any company like that, I used to get pissed of at applications that asked if your single or married or if you are straight or gay I dont think thats anyone's business and as a woman I always think its the male management checking to see if your available so its a red flag for sexual harassment to me, now its just getting worse and worse.

YANBU, OP.

Pronouns are a signal that someone is either being coerced or supports an extreme and potentially dangerous ideology.

My experience is that it's so often driven by (predominately white male) Exec's and HR departments trying to be "relevant" and "inclusive" whilst simultaneously ignoring the far more significant lack of diversity/salary parity/seniority wrt to women and ethnicity within the workplace

So hey - let's celebrate everyone having their pronouns on emails and our Stonewall credentials, but ignore the fact there is no BAME or female representation at a senior level

So true @BreadInCaptivity It's a no-cost "hey look at us, we're so inclusive" that does nothing to address the inequalities that already exist in the work place

get so fed up with filling out application forms that ask for my gender, I am so tempted to tick "prefer not to say" if they have a box to write your own I make it clear I am female sex and I dont believe in gender. but so few forms actually have a box to type in.

But surely true equality is for age/race/religion/gender/sex/whether you have dependents etc blind applications.
A candidate should be hired for their ability to do the job and nothing else.
And once they are in post others are only entitled to know enough personal details required to work with them and nothing else

@patritus

get so fed up with filling out application forms that ask for my gender, I am so tempted to tick "prefer not to say" if they have a box to write your own I make it clear I am female sex and I dont believe in gender. but so few forms actually have a box to type in.

But surely true equality is for age/race/religion/gender/sex/whether you have dependents etc blind applications.
A candidate should be hired for their ability to do the job and nothing else.
And once they are in post others are only entitled to know enough personal details required to work with them and nothing else

When I first started looking for work we were told how to write our CVs and things.

never include a photo unless your a model, its none of their business, dont write your age/DOB again its none of their business and discrimination if they actually hire based on age, same apples for for your sexual orientation and so on.

they also said never write miss, mr whatever on your CV just your name, contact details, experience, education, key skills and maybe a bit about hobbies if you feel they are relevant to the position your applying for, your personal information is none of their business and nothing to do with the job.

now we are having to write all the things they told us not to write to avoid discrimination, seemingly to show inclusivity its bollocks, at best a totally incompetent will be employed because they tick all the diversity boxes thus being discriminatory towards the none gay and black or whatever applicants, but I'm sure 9.9 times out of 10 its used to discriminate people on age, sex and marital status.

@ArabellaScott

YANBU, OP.

Pronouns are a signal that someone is either being coerced or supports an extreme and potentially dangerous ideology.

Bloody hell, there's a lot more to Brenda in Accounts than I realised.

Interesting that it apparently causes unacceptable distress to refer to a trans person by anything other than the name of their chosen gender, and yet simultaneously it's fine to call women 'cisgender' against their wishes.