To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

[hehimshehertheythem]

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

Pronouns mi/ow

I'd have thought they were feed/me.

The presence of pronouns is a really good way to work out who not to trust with any work that involves critical thinking or thinking in general.

I really don't get the people who say "My name can be confused for a man's/woman's name so it really helps"

I work with people from all over the world. My first name is a name for males in a couple of those countries. On the rare occasions someone has had to refer to me in the third person in an email and used 'he', I haven't fallen to the ground, assumed the foetal position and cried my eyes out. Not even when I've received an email/letter that starts with 'Dear sir'. What kind of fool would actually care about that?

I think that you are supposed to put she/her because you can also be she/they. So 'she' alone won't cut the mustard as these are two very different things.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! What do you mean by 'these are two very different things'? What are?

She/her is saying 'I want to be referred to by female pronouns'. Adding the 'her' is completely unnecessary. It doesn't add anything except to remind people that the object version of 'she' is 'her' (which we all know anyway).

She/they is presumably saying 'I am happy to be referred to using either female or gender-neutral pronouns'. But then why wouldn't you put she/her/they/them?!

And I naïvely thought that the one silver lining of all this was that at least people would actually learn what pronouns were and how to use them grammatically correctly...

I don’t like it and won’t be doing it

I'm surprised you've never heard about it before, it's posted about on here at least once per fortnight.

[quote Lalliella]@foxgoosefinch I think I love you! Your posts are brilliant. They express how I feel much better than I can express myself.[/quote]
@Lalliella aw thank you, you have absolutely made my day!

Not to derail the thread to much but I just wanted to post a link to this excellent paper about Effective communication about pregnancy, birth, lactation, breastfeeding and newborn care.

It discusses the problems that can arise when using gender neutral/desexed language and how it impacts women. It's a hugely useful article to have handy should any problems arise eg in the workplace or when accessing women's health services.

internal-journal.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full?fbclid=IwAR1GmMyg9yC58i3SargXSSpsw1NgaVoD6raB8cz40YuEgx9VxFTr5A4m4OQ

It's strange - I don't use it and if you didn't know me you could potentially think my first name is male - it's not an English name.

I have no intentions of adding it.

Thing is, I'm not an ally. Neither am I an enemy. My views of your pronouns are none of your business. I am polite and will use them when speaking with you but no one can dictate how I speak about someone in their absence. I don't actually want the world to know how I view myself. I'm not really interested in how most other people view themselves either!

Exactly! It is unreasonable to expect other people to be allies who validate how one views oneself. They aren't props or audience members. They don't have to define themselves in relation to someone else's view of themselves.

@Jenjenn

Our work is recommending we include them. I won't. How about some actual action for inequality? Making all employees include pronouns is a zero-cost way of ticking an inclusiveness box. Wtf. I won't be having an argument with my boss over this though, I will just say that I am not ready to declare my preference.

Just say you are not interested in joining a new religion.

Since this is all "belief" based and not reason based then it is a religion, and worshipping at the later of trans is not something I am going to do. And no one should be force to do so either.

@foxgoosefinch has it spot on.

I am in a social care sector where we desperately need recruits and I have seen pronouns appearing on colleagues' emails. I think 1) it is a political statement and has no place being aired, any more than adding "labour voter / anti fox hunting / Pro Brexit" does.
2) it risks putting off potential recruits, because they will either fear they won't get a fair assessment if their views differ or will think the agency is staffed by woke arses and go somewhere else. Or they will just be baffled and think "I don't even understand their signature, how will I get through the assessment?" Because in the majority of the real world pronouns are not a thing.
3) we are a sector that is predominantly staffed by women. I would guess 95% ish if not more. Probably it won't suprise anyone that this sector has struggled to be taken seriously as a profession and not just a bunch of interfering do-gooders, or worse. So buying into this crap and highlighting your sex isn't helpful in the ongoing challenge of being taken seriously.

If you want to call yourself they/xe/ whatever that's fine, but I'm not going to join in your lie and I'm not here to validate you. I will use whatever pronouns you want if there's any need to use them at all but I won't pretend I buy into it. We don't do it with any other beliefs so why do it with gender ideology?

And sorry colleagues with pronouns but I now have second thoughts about your assessment capabilites and will read your reports with a more critical eye, because I think less of your critical thinking skills now I know you have voluntarily opted into this bullshit.

This is a hill to die on for me. Some might say it isn't that important: to me, it is.

I've experienced sexual harassment, stalking, and other forms of sex-based discrimination in my work place. I then had a horrible time when I escalated a complaint about the harassment, because people would rather believe the woman is a liar than the man an abuser. Being female has significantly disadvantaged me.

The hell I'm now going to draw overt attention to my sex in my workplace. If nothing else - God I loathe this word but it IS - 'triggering' for me.

I'll respect others' choice of names and identity but on the back of a highly entitled, aggressive movement I will not ensure others' comfort at the expense of my own.

'Pronouns' can get lost (and I instantly think less of others who capitulate to this).

My name is female - but to get to the male version of my name you have to remove the last 2 letters.

I deal with the middle east a lot in my job.

I get emails every day saying
"dear "male version of name"

And do you know what? It means nothing.
It makes no difference to my life at all.
If you want to put pronouns - your choice,
But you will never ever make me.

Then don't do it? Dont get your flaps in a twist.

Our work is recommending we include them. I won't. How about some actual action for inequality? Making all employees include pronouns is a zero-cost way of ticking an inclusiveness box. Wtf. I won't be having an argument with my boss over this though, I will just say that I am not ready to declare my preference.

Yes. It hasn't come to direct organisational pressure for me as yet, but I'm increasingly seeing email signatures from senior management declaring 'why I share my pronouns and why you could too', with a link to a site extolling the virtues of all that's great about Pronoun Announcement.

I'm giving them no explanations whatsoever. 'No, I don't, or no, I won't do that' will have to suffice. I've learned that on this particular topic it's safest to say as little as possible that can in no way be misconstrued.

Damn them. I was reading a site on some innocuous issue only yesterday that referred (demunanisingly) to 'people with vaginas. People with penises naturally didn't get a mention. I am not a cunt.

I think you’re deliberately ’not getting it’. By normalising putting your pronouns on your email signature you make it easier for others to do the same.

You might know that Margaret is a ‘she’ but the new IT person might prefer ‘they’.

Whether you agree with people choosing their own pronouns is a different matter.

@Butteryflakycrust83

Then don't do it? Dont get your flaps in a twist.

What are the choices?
I just want to be Me.

@sashagabadon

I also remember when it was rude to refer to someone as “she” in their absence anyway. My mother would say “who’s she? The cats mother?” If talking about someone in the absence I was taught to use their name.

Good point! Not heard that phrase in years :o

it's ridiculous, and something that I've only just started seeing happen. Just a load of virtual signalling, saying look how hip and cool we are, keeping with the times. Why does someone I deal with on a professional basis, who I will never meet etc etc think we care about how they identify, that's their business, but don't bring it into business. I deal with a lot of Middle eastern countries at work, most of them presume I am a man. I don't give a shit. Crazy times, the world has gone bonkers.

My organisation had a rebranding recently which involved rolling out new email sign-offs. The template they circulated had pronouns included and so effectively everyone has had to made a conscious decision whether to keep the pronoun line or not. There’s not been any guidance given and it’s always been ad hoc previously- some included pronouns, others didn't.

So I’ve been keeping an unofficial tally of who has kept the pronoun line and who hasn’t. So far it’s around 50/50 with age being the key factor - with virtually all under 40s keeping it and virtually all over 40s deleting it.

The real keen beans also have pronouns on their zoom names…

@Beamur

Thing is, I'm not an ally. Neither am I an enemy. My views of your pronouns are none of your business. I am polite and will use them when speaking with you but no one can dictate how I speak about someone in their absence. I don't actually want the world to know how I view myself. I'm not really interested in how most other people view themselves either!

This^ For those sweetly naive posters explaining how important it is, I refer you upthread to FemaleAndLearning's gloriously bonkers list of pronouns.