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AIBU?

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Original poster

To not get the e-mail sign off with pronoun's?

388 replies

hehimshehertheythem · 20/01/2022 22:21

He/him and she/her at the end of an email. Margaret I know you're a woman and Jeff I know you're a man. Why are you teaching me to suck eggs. I don't get it?

I have not once never see a they/them as a sign off, so what is the actual point?

I for one will not be taking part in this madness. But would like to understand the thought behind the people that do? If there is any thought that is.

OP posts:
BonkMyPop · 21/01/2022 10:06

@DdraigGoch

Often there isn't any thought behind it. They've usually either been on a course which told them they should do it, or it has been added automatically by HR.
HR don’t add them automatically 🤦🏻‍♀️
Kotatsu · 21/01/2022 10:06

Like hell am I going to draw attention to my sex, or bring any kind of gender discussions into work where it's entirely irrelevant

I already have enough of that - fitting out a new office in the states, and getting asked about which size of mother's room (honestly, it's a wardrobe with a plastic seat) would be acceptable. Apparently my answer of "none of them, how about 6 months paid maternity leave instead" isn't acceptable (and yes, I realise people might pump for longer, but I dunno, I'd prefer to do that in an actual room with the door locked/curtains drawn rather than shut myself in the expressing wardrobe personally!

Iloveyogurt · 21/01/2022 10:06

@AuntyBumBum

It's so that those who do want to choose non-standard pronouns don't feel isolated in making a declaration.
Completely agree with this, it's not a big deal and could help others feel comfortable. I can't get worked up about this when there are other more pressing issues in the world.
Theeyeballsinthesky · 21/01/2022 10:14

I’m always baffled that ppl think this is a non issue. Signing up to pronouns in emails signals that ‘why yes you think it’s perfectly acceptable for a man to say he’s a woman just by declaring it’

So if that’s ok, it’s ok for men to join womens social groups right? I mean if they say they’re a woman why not? Why can’t they join the local ladies running group?

And if that’s ok why not allow them to join programmes designed to improve the representation of women in politics or STEM subjects? I mean they’re a woman right? Their pronouns say they are and everyone has nodded along because they don’t want to be unkind

And then why not allow men to self identify into womens elite sport? I mean you’ve all told them they’re a woman and gone along with she/her to be kind

That’s what people don’t get. It starts with pronouns in emails and ends with men in womens refuges, womens rape support services and in womens prisons

It’s never just pronouns

Kotatsu · 21/01/2022 10:14

Completely agree with this, it's not a big deal and could help others feel comfortable. I can't get worked up about this when there are other more pressing issues in the world.

It absolutely is a big deal - have you seen none of the studies? Everything from orchestra auditions to lab technician hires, if you highlight that you are female, then you are estimated as less experienced, and get lower salary offers.

I'm blowed if I'm going to participate in my own oppression thanks.

PearlclutchersInc · 21/01/2022 10:18

I saw my first they/them/etc this week. Unsurprisingly the owner identifies with most of the minority groups.

If it makes them feel better fine - I do get why everyone is being asked to do, for inclusivity, but I think all it does it make people stand out.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/01/2022 10:18

Haven't seen this posted yet. Apologies if it has. Started life as a post here on FWR, IIRC. fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

ForensicAccountant · 21/01/2022 10:19

What I don’t get, why put in accusative case. Should you not also then include possessive and dative?
Like:
They, them, their, theirs
If you want to be inclusive, why leave some of them out?
ForensicAccountant
I, me, my, mine

Migrainesbythedozen · 21/01/2022 10:21

@Iloveyogurt Read this link and tell me if you still think it's 'no big deal'. www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/what-happened-when-a-man-signed-work-emails-using-a-female-name-for-a-week_n_58c2ce53e4b054a0ea6a4066

All these 'small things' add up and snowball to become the "pressing issues", and are the cause of gender inequality in the workplace, and as always, it's women who suffer the most.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/01/2022 10:24

@Just10moreminutesplease

I think you’re deliberately ’not getting it’. By normalising putting your pronouns on your email signature you make it easier for others to do the same.

You might know that Margaret is a ‘she’ but the new IT person might prefer ‘they’.

Whether you agree with people choosing their own pronouns is a different matter.

There are all sorts of things a new employee might not like, but will usually have to suck up. Unilaterally changing the way language works for all employees and insisting that gender trumps sex are not reasonable demands.
Chrysanthemum5 · 21/01/2022 10:26

Someone at my work is she/her on Monday Tuesday and Friday but they/them on Wednesday and Thursday. Which always makes me wonder what if I wrote an email referring to that individual as she on a Tuesday, but it wasn't read until Wednesday when that person is now they?

Original poster
hehimshehertheythem · 21/01/2022 10:30

@Just10moreminutesplease

I think you’re deliberately ’not getting it’. By normalising putting your pronouns on your email signature you make it easier for others to do the same.

You might know that Margaret is a ‘she’ but the new IT person might prefer ‘they’.

Whether you agree with people choosing their own pronouns is a different matter.

I think what you have written is the very top layer of the onion in terms of 'getting it'

I get what you have written. I am referring to all the other layers which have been acknowledged within this thread.

OP posts:
Iloveyogurt · 21/01/2022 10:31

[quote Migrainesbythedozen]@Iloveyogurt Read this link and tell me if you still think it's 'no big deal'. www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/what-happened-when-a-man-signed-work-emails-using-a-female-name-for-a-week_n_58c2ce53e4b054a0ea6a4066

All these 'small things' add up and snowball to become the "pressing issues", and are the cause of gender inequality in the workplace, and as always, it's women who suffer the most.[/quote]
Interesting story. I guess I have always been fortunate that in all levels and years of work I have never been discriminated against because of my gender. It is absolutely right that sexism and mysogyny should be tackled but the linking of this as a reason not to use your pronouns is not valid in my opinion. Two separate issues to tackle separately.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/01/2022 10:32

I have a dim memory of reading about someone who signals what gender they feel at that moment by wearing a wristband of a certain colour. The onus was then on those around them to notice and remember what each colour signified. This must surely have been a parody.

Everafter20 · 21/01/2022 10:41

We live in times where a business can be slated all over social media and potentially lose a lot of business or have legal action taken against them just because an employee mistakenly calls she a he or vice versa. Businesses are running scared from this topic and just trying to cover all customers. In my opinion it is utter madness but we already know that us people with a cervix, as the Scottish government have taken to addressing us are not being heard and are losing our rights more and more every day to trans rights. I believe inequality for everyone but this has gone too far now.

Kotatsu · 21/01/2022 10:44

Interesting story. I guess I have always been fortunate that in all levels and years of work I have never been discriminated against because of my gender.

But how would you know? Part of gender (ie. the social treatment of a person according to their sex) is expectations, and it's an unconscious bias - you wouldn't know if, had you been male, you would have been considered for internal promotion, been offered a higher grade, been estimated as achieving better for your bonus assessment, or just had your CV put in the circular file as not good enough.

VelvetChairGirl · 21/01/2022 10:49

@MaxNormal

I think being coerced into using them at work is akin to religious coercion.
I agree, and I deliberately dont use them at all around anyone I think is a fanatical Gender ideologist.

its not worth it, altho tbf I swerve those people anyway.

Flammkuchen · 21/01/2022 10:52

Interestingly some of the best research on sex bias has come from transgender people. There was a study on gender bias a few years ago on Radio 4, where they had looked at the treatment of transitioning people in the workplace.

FTM transitioners reported being treated more favourably than before, with a greater assumption of competence.

MTF reported the opposite and fared worse in their career post transition.

One FTM reported that one client told them that 'thank god you've replaced the women who was there before. You're so much better' without realising it was the same person.

So no, I am not going to draw attention to my sex in the workplace.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 21/01/2022 10:56

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

It’s to signify compliance with the ideology.
This and only this.
C8H10N4O2 · 21/01/2022 11:04

I guess I have always been fortunate that in all levels and years of work I have never been discriminated against because of my gender

If you are a woman and if you are in a position to even know, then yes you are extremely lucky.

If you are using pronouns because you have been told its kind or helpful to another group then you might want to read the Yogyakarta Principles linked to above. Coerced speech is never helpful, especially to those it claims to help whilst forcing them to out themselves. Its always about with power controlling those without it.

Ormally · 21/01/2022 11:07

@Isaw3ships

‘ DepletingDopamine

Huge generalisation alert!
I’m guessing that the people that have an issue with this are cisgender.’

Nope.we had a massive discussion/argument about this in our work LGBTQ+ grp and it was divided 50/50 pretty much.

So it's ok to guess at cisgender leanings based on the absence of some words/semantics?!! Now I'm confused...
TheElementsSong · 21/01/2022 11:08

I would no more declare pronouns in my email signature than I would add my Zodiac sign or my preferred day to make sacrifice to Xipetotec.

SlapBet · 21/01/2022 11:10

If I was ever asked to include pronouns I would go with the suggestion I read on here,
“My pronouns are sex based like my oppression “

AuntyBumBum · 21/01/2022 11:14

@shrodingersvaccine

Also, like *@sashagabadon* was brought up that it was rude to refer to someone as 'she' in their absence so their name/they feels more polite to me! It's just occurred to me to wonder why we were brought up that 'she' is rude but 'he' isn't....
Hmmm, "Who's "She"? The cat's mother?".

Said my mother imperiously, at least twice a day. She was inexplicably but firmly of the view that any pronouns are an affront to the dignity of women! You're right, though, I can't remember the cat's father ever being brought into play Grin

YetAnotherSpartacus · 21/01/2022 11:15

I'm not 'cisgender'. I'm not 'trans' either. Cisgender is made up nothingness at best and offensive at worst.

I'm a woman.