AIBU to think that assisted deliveries are more dangerous than we are led to believe

[Lulu1027]

Last September I suffered severe injuries as the result of a ventouse delivery that I did not consent to. I am still in recovery. Since the incident, I have sought out other women who have had similar experiences and I'm coming to the conclusion that assisted deliveries are more dangerous than we are led to believe. AIBU to feel this? Have any mumsnet users suffered similarly?

There is also a tendency in the medical profession to dismiss thing like prolapse, pelvic floor trauma, incontinence as minor issues. Fine, they don’t kill you. But for so many women they are desperately traumatic and distressing injuries to live with. I don’t think I’ve seen many studies accounting for that.

But god forbid that a man should have to put up with erectile dysfunction. That doesn't kill you either, yet funnily enough the health profession isn't telling men to put up and shut up. Meanwhile women with life changing birth injuries are being told that it's an inevitable side-effect of having a baby and to get on with it.

[quote BiscuitLover3678]@LumosSolem and most women just come out saying “at least we’re both ok” ie alive. Rarely anyone does anything about it. It’s a very vulnerable situation to be in.[/quote]
Agreed @BiscuitLover3678- its an incredibly vulnerable position to be in.

It's bizarre really isn't it- I actively chose the biggest medical intervention possible, an ELCS under GA- I was completely passive. But at the same time I knew all the steps that would happen and I therefore felt completely in control. It made a real difference I think. But that is what was best for me.

I still remember the doctor, male and very young, not understanding why I wanted to avoid forceps. He couldn’t fathom why I might be scared of having an assisted delivery. “ just have an epidural it doesn’t matter. C section is way worse”. He had no fucking idea.

@LumosSolem I’m considering an elective next time for this reason. I have very mixed feelings about it though. The aftercare isn’t great and if I recover worse I don’t want to be stuck in hospital any longer than I have to.

@Lulu1027

Last September I suffered severe injuries as the result of a ventouse delivery that I did not consent to. I am still in recovery. Since the incident, I have sought out other women who have had similar experiences and I'm coming to the conclusion that assisted deliveries are more dangerous than we are led to believe. AIBU to feel this? Have any mumsnet users suffered similarly?

If you are actively seeking out woman who have had similar experience that is going to give you a bias. I had ventouse which I didn’t consent to however my baby was stuck and I had complete faith in my delivery team to make the right decision for the safe delivery of my baby. Any harm to me I would see as incidental in the safe delivery.

@randomsabreuse I think the focus should be on listening to women and ensuring that they are able to make properly informed choices right from the beginning of pregnancy. And they feel in control of their choices and are respected.

I can't comment on what is easier to recover from- CS or a vaginal delivery, because I have only had ELCS. I had pain afterwards but I recovered really quickly and really well with no lasting effects at all. The truth is it is really does seem to be a lottery- can have a really rough recovery from a VB or very easy, and vice versa for CS.

I had vontose but it was all made very clear why it was needed. Ds was back to back presenting with his head tilted to the side and the cord to short to move down the birth canal because it was wrapped around his neck ( didnt know that until he was born).

The midwife who delivered him told me on the ward the next day I could have pushed forever, it was impossible for him to come down.

Because of that I dont have any bad feelings about it. I'd be dead without intervention at so many points in that pregnancy. I had pre eclampsia.

I think you need to find out as much as you can so you find some peace. For me, no amount of me doing anything could have prevented pre eclampsia or vontose. Therefore I can look back and be ok. Mind you that took time. It took about three months to hit me ( more about the PE but in turn induction, very fast birth, vontose) a good two years to even think about having another. But the alternative was not getting out of the hospital.

Dont dismiss your feelings. But do think about steps to process it by finding out all you can.

Form my experience intervention would be needed a lot less if we had attentive midwives who listened to patients. Almost everyone I know who had birth trauma had one common theme- midwives didn't listen, I said I was I active labour but midwives didn't listen, I asked for pain relief but midwives didn't listen. I asked for support on the postnatal ward but was ignored.

Why aren't woman being listen too? Why do midwives ignore woman, you know the patient who is actually giving birth?

I had an assisted delivery in 1985. My daughter was in the occipital posterior position ie back to back. It was Christmas Eve. I often wonder if her birth was induced because it was Christmas. I later trained to be a midwife. I spent my career advocating for women to try to prevent such birth trauma and its' lasting consequences.

Midwife.

My first baby was showing very big for dates so after researching the implications of shoulder dysplasia etc I specifically wrote in my birth plan that I did not consent to forceps and in the event of difficulty would want to speak with a consultant prior to use of ventouse or episiotomy. As it happens after multiple attempts to induce me and then having my waters broken but baby still not coming, the consultant fully agreed and we moved to c section. I was then recommended a second c section with my next very large baby and I have no regrets whatsoever. If you write in your notes what you and do not consent to or state explicitly that you expect to be informed every step of the way then that is what they have to do.

A family members baby died due to excessive force used a forceps delivery. They have been heavily affected by PTSD and flashbacks of seeing the damage to the skull of their newborn baby. It ruined a lot of lives. I am electing for a caesarean out of fear of what she went through.

Not to be devil's advocate, but without a high forceps (keilands) delivery ds1 and I could both have died, because he was stuck in the birth canal and I was haemorrhaging.

Was it traumatic? Yes, very. Did I want it? No I did not. But, it was an emergency, too late for a cs and they had to get him out. Both of us are alive and well, 10 years later. Without medical intervention this story would not have had a happy ending.

I was supposed to have elcs with ds2 but he scuppered that plan by arriving 6 weeks early.

I'm sorry for your trauma sounds like the issue is them Not fully informing you of everything. It has taken me years to get over giving birth to my 1st child and am currently waiting to have an operation to fix things caused by that. My baby was in severe distress with heart rate dropping and it was an emergency situation suddenly the room was full of people my feet were in stirrups and a doctor was using a ventouse that didn't work so forceps came out don't think i even noticed what they used all I could think was oh my god baby is goona die and so am I (dangerously low blood pressure or so I thought) the doc and midwife had a disagreement with her telling him off and that he needs to wait for a contraction before pulling, him telling her he's getting baby out now and doesn't need to wait for contraction. Felt like he was pulling my whole body inside out anyway much blood n gore n stitches later baby comes out without a noise is whisked off to be resuscitated then all is fine except for bruising to his eye that lasted 15 years and suction marks on his head and face, I was in a lot of pain couldn't walk for a week or so and then had prolapse however I am grateful they saved my child and don't really care about injuries as if they hadn't done that baby could have died and what's worse? Pretty sure they didnt tell me what they were doing as they were too busy getting baby out there was no debriefing and I am sure I did have some sort of post traumatic shock but I understand childbirth is risky and don't blame anyone for it. Perhaps you need to see your records again to understand what went wrong and why they did what they did. I hope you get the answers you need.

@Tmwtgg Thank you. Exactly. Men would never stand for this kind of treatment.

I refused consent for any touching in labour, I was not to be touched by anyone, even dh, unless I actually, specifically asked to be.

It did confuse the midwives at first and more than once they pestered me with requests for touching eg an examination, even though I’d said no. They kept saying it would be easier for them if I consented to touch but it would not have been easier for me. I do wonder if this request led to more watchfulness, and more listening to my actual words, than if I’d consented to touch. I do wonder if there might be a bit of a conveyor belt mentality to birth for some medical professionals. Habits, too. And probably a large side of misogyny, even from the women (you just wait, you’ll be screaming, leave your dignity at the door blah blah blah, all shit misogynistic tropes)

As it is, with lots of luck and good fortune I have actually been through all my births without touch from a medical professional (and from DH either as I’ve can bugger right off when I’m in labour).

The system is broken if we have women coming through it so traumatised. I’m so sorry for those struggling with birth injuries.

@gogohm

Yabu they do not undertake assisted deliveries unless necessary. They will have informed you it was necessary.

Unfortunately epidurals increase the likelihood of needing an assisted delivery, I'm not sure whether this is clearly communicated before labour

I was offered the choice of forceps or emcs without any discussion of the risks of either. In the end I opted for forceps which badly bruised my baby's head (to the point she couldn't feed due to the pain) and have left her with a permanent scar on her cheek. The forceps didn't work so we ended up with an emcs anyway. Had I been informed of the risks of forcep use i'd never have let them anywhere near DD. I was in hospital for three days for an induction - surely in that time someone could have explained the risks of the various interventions that were quite likely to be required.

Emergency c section for first child - just fine, they urged to try naturally for the second child. The baby’s heart stopped though just before full dilation, they brutally yanked it out and took it to resus (worked, phew). Horrendous. Just so horrendously traumatic. Nightmares for months. Problems bonding. PND. What really really annoys me though is that midwives afterwards we’re going on and on about how great it was that I didn’t have to have another emergency section. WHAT!!!!! WTF!!!!! A woman is left ripped apart by unnecessary trauma and that is done sort of success??? It’s a sick attitude these obstetricians and midwives have, a really sick attitude.

I had two spontaneous labours that both ended up in theatre. One an EMCS, the other intended on being EMCS but ended up being rather rough forceps as baby was just on the point of no return.
The second birth while incurring the worse birth injuries was less traumatic because communication was generally better with more explanation of what was happening or coming next. Interestingly it did have a 12 week hospital check-up. Nothing after the emergency surgery.

Informed consent is a huge issue.
Debriefing is another huge issue.

I wish I'd been offered a epidural with DS1. I'd had over 24 hours of regular contractions before being admitted and about 5 hours into the labour room the MW sweetly popped my waters to speed things up. No warning that I was about to explode with pain. Then she says "I know you didn't want pethadine". I'd have sold the baby at that point if it was going to help. Unfortunately pethadine did not relieve the pain, it locked me in with it. The pain relief discussion should have come first.

My babies were 11 & 8 years ago. Staffing was a major part of the baggage with DS1's birth both labour and on main ward. DS2 was born at a quieter time. I had a MW in the labour room at all times and staff had enough time to care. With DS1 staff dipped in and out until the late stages. Main ward was awful, dumped on there at midnight and left to fend for myself with no information (I hadn't walked for over 48 hours by then).

There is a huge amount of underplaying around birth and a huge lack of follow-up when things have had complications. The 6-8wk GP check doesn't present an opportunity to bridge with hospital care. It's more of a "stitches healed, thought about contraception?" agenda. Often issues haven't even surfaced at that point and there needs to be a door open within the first year to give women the chance to recognise issues and respond.

I also had a kiellands delivery that saved my baby and I. We both have permanent damage but are alive. My repairs were extensive and very well done but I was lucky to be at St Thomas’ with the best obstetricians. No pregnancy and birth is ever safe really. Sorry for all those that have suffered.

There should be much more information given at midwife appointments about various interventions and the potential consequences.

Unfortunately there are increasing numbers of complicated pregnancies and inductions which can lead to a cascade of interventions.

I think there needs to be a lot more research and education on how to prevent this, from before women even become pregnant up to being in labour.

Obviously there will always be cases where emergency interventions are required. But things like being a healthy weight at conception, being active during pregnancy, and trying to help move the baby into the optimal position in the final trimester, hypnobirthing etc could have a big impact.

The aim should be for mother and child to come though it all happy and healthy. The effects of a traumatic birth can have a devastating impact on mental health.

I had a failed ventous followed by forceps delivery for ds1. I did consent, I had been in labour for several hours and he was stuck sideways and in distress. He has congenital neuro abnormalities which they knew about and a 99th centile head which they also knew about as I had scans every 2 weeks due to his conditions. They told me he would possibly die if I didn't consent so of course I wasn't going to say no. I had no analgesia at all for the venous attempts, the first cap they tried came unstuck and came flying out of me. I felt like I was being tortured when they were putting it in and on to his head, it was by far the most physically painful thing I have ever been subjected to. I had a spinal block in theatres for the forceps so at least there was no pain. It gave me a severe rectocele and moderate cystocele. I have been urine incontinent and cannot open my bowels unless using a water irrigation system or manually evacuating my bowels due to my injuries. My second living ds was recently born by elective c-section to prevent worsening of the prolapses and also for mental health reasons (middle ds was a tfmr which involved being induced to deliver him as a stillborn) but I have bad luck with babies and births and had a major haemorrhage losing 33% of my total blood volume, asides from nearly bleeding to death the c-sec was better than the instrumental delivery and the induced Labour.

@Mountaingoat12 I got the same attitude. When I asked the doctor the next day why I wasn't given a section he said you'll see you'll heal so much better. Yeah right. I'm still recovering four months on and have permanent injuries. Was also told my injuries weren't severe because I wasn't given an episiotomy. In what universe is a third-degree tear plus inner and labial tears not severe? I was sent home with a motrin (otc pain reliever like paracetemol). If I had suffered such a severe injury in any other context I would have been given prescription pain killers.

@Tigger85 I'm so sorry you have suffered so terribly. Why didn't they give you an elcs in the first place if they knew his placement/head size! Wishing you all the best. You are so strong!

I had a ventouse. No episiotomy, no trauma, no issues