Why do men do this

[Tevion28]

Following on from the Ashling Murthy murder and the likes of the Sarah Everard I've been thinking alot as to why men do this and I can only think that they must have a deep hatred for women and feel threatened by us for some reason. What do you all think I'm not convinced that these men all have mental health problems myself.

@TheRealShedSadie

I don’t even necessarily think it’s hatred of women specifically. It’s just that women are easy targets for violent men who want to hurt, kill or demonstrate power.

Women are also often seen as not fully human like men are, so it doesn’t matter as much. (Reference being the ongoing 2 women per week murdered over decades and absolutely nothing done).

So not seeing women as humans isn't a manifestation of hating women?

@MorningStarling this is an excellent comment.

One thing I think will help is encouraging men to channel violence in a legal way - boxing or martial arts is a good example of this, instilling rules and discipline. This is exactly why my boys both train in martial arts regularly.

Violent tendancies are a primal instinct in men (like maternal instinct in women) and as such is not a bad thing as long as it does not result in harm. This is not something that can be repressed and indeed I believe its more harmful to try and do so. Men are not women and the two cannot be treated the same in this instance and there need to be strategies to help young men develop without feeling the need to cause harm to others.

@MorningStarling

I think it's unhelpful to try to rationalise it as "hatred of women" or "feeling threatened" by them. The problem with this kind of diagnosis is women inevitably try to understand men from a female perspective. We can only judge things from our experiences, but men's experiences are not the same as women's.

Personally I think it's just that men are naturally more violent. On average, the average man will resort to violence before the average woman would have done in the same situation. It's not hatred of women, it's merely the product of evolution - men have historically needed to use violence in a way that women haven't. There are few legitimate uses for violence these days (boxing, army, police) but even then, there is no lawful outlet for sexual violence or abduction/murder. Even a couple of hundred years ago there was plenty of scope for the type of man who liked raping/killing to join the military and give vent to his feelings, in an accepted manner.

That's the thing: society has changed faster than men have.

So that I can understand your point: do you think that men did not rape women in the good old days?

Or do you think that raping the enemy's women was a man ' venting his feelings in an accepted manner'?

[quote Narutocrazyfox]@MorningStarling this is an excellent comment.

One thing I think will help is encouraging men to channel violence in a legal way - boxing or martial arts is a good example of this, instilling rules and discipline. This is exactly why my boys both train in martial arts regularly.

Violent tendancies are a primal instinct in men (like maternal instinct in women) and as such is not a bad thing as long as it does not result in harm. This is not something that can be repressed and indeed I believe its more harmful to try and do so. Men are not women and the two cannot be treated the same in this instance and there need to be strategies to help young men develop without feeling the need to cause harm to others.[/quote]
These comments are confusing two issues.

It does appear to be the case that many young men have a drive to be risk taking, and to engage in these activities with other men. We still have activities that enable men to do this, such as rugby, extreme sports, parkour etc. For young men who can access these and want to do this (not all young men do, people are different). Maybe society could do more to enable young men to explore this side of themselves in healthy and constructive ways - that's up for debate.

However, that is about men's expression of risk taking, physicality and male bonding. I see that as separate from men's violence towards women. The idea that societies where men can have these outlets have somehow been a safe utopia for women is laughable. Armies, where men have all of those needs met, are well known, throughout history, for raping women.

@crochetmonkey74

Men hate women and we have been conditioned not to challenge them. I'm a teacher and so many boys go out of their way to tell me I'm wrong about almost everything. Male teachers dont have the same . I call it out every single time now but that's because I'm 47 and fiesty. Manly men need to lead by example. Young men do not listen to any one else

I've just posted something similar to this on able thread! Some boys really, really hate strong women. They also try and physically intimidate by standing really close to you or barging past. Where do they learn that and the exaggeratedswagger they put on when you ask them to go outside etc? Older boys and so and and so on forever.

It's male culture that needs to change and mothers just can't do it.

I think fathers have way more influence than we do, once they get to a certain age.
The dads who aren't there, so boys start subconsciously (or not) blaming muns
The utter bastard dads who are hero worshipped on account of their unavailability
The violent dads
The man-children
The gammon/ King of the castle
The casual misogynists

What is wrong with you, MorningStarling? Why do you always pop up on threads like this and how can you show your digital face after this comment, which you have never, to my knowledge, retracted? Why should we listen to anything you have to say about male on female violence?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4442520-to-think-that-men-shouldn-t-be-named-as-women-in-newspapers-if-they-have-committed-sexual-offences?pg=9

"Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person."

The dads who aren't there, so boys start subconsciously (or not) blaming mums

THIS a million percent!

@crochetmonkey74

The dads who aren't there, so boys start subconsciously (or not) blaming mums

THIS a million percent!

Yes also consider the phrase ‘single mother’ this is used as a slight on the woman most of the time, what we should be saying is ‘absent father’ why does the one who stayed get the shame from society? She’s a mother, no need for the single and he’s the absent father.

I forgot the men who worship their mums too, so ordinary mortal women can never stack up. Their mums are angels, so untouchable and not really the same species as the other. It's a bit like the Victorian Angel at the Hearth bollocks.

Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person

Well, morningstarling could not more clearly be displaying a hatred for women than there. Quite clear that they think it is appropriate for the State to put women in constant fear of male sexual violence as punishment for being 'bad' women. And if they are sexually assaulted, well, they are bad woman who don't deserve any better anyway.

@electrablue "views that women are inferior/not actual human beings"

A Catholic council denied that "women are human".
Since the early modern period, there have apparently been claims that the council of 585 denied that women have a soul. At the council of Macon, among the holy fathers there was one who insisted that women cannot, and should not, be called human beings.
We had no value then.
So when men are violent towards women it is a bit like kicking the cat.

@JeshusHChr

Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person

Well, morningstarling could not more clearly be displaying a hatred for women than there. Quite clear that they think it is appropriate for the State to put women in constant fear of male sexual violence as punishment for being 'bad' women. And if they are sexually assaulted, well, they are bad woman who don't deserve any better anyway.

Not to mention the idea that prisoners are not normal people, and that it's fine to use rape as a deterrent for women while offering effective reward to rapists.

Starling? More like a vulture.

I don't think it is just hatred of women. I think men are just violent beings and bad things happen when they can't control themselves. Look how quick a drunk man is to attack another man who CAN fight back. Noone is safe from men.

@thelegohooverer

I think that there is a lot to unpick.

And adding to what has already been said I don’t think it’s helpful that many of the most powerful men in society studied, and in many cases majored in rape mythology, otherwise known as Classics.

Good point @thelegohooverer

This is an interesting piece on that topic

womeninantiquity.wordpress.com/2017/12/06/consent-and-rape-culture-in-ancient-greece/

@AsYouWishButtercup

Why is it never a mental illness when it race related? Why do women only ever get the dishonour of “oh it’s just some loon”. Why are we so afraid to say out loud that men are sexist?

I think a form of psychological conditioning is probably a better description than a mental illness.

@AnnieKenney

Thank you for the link CaveMum - I hadn't known that before.

You're welcome. I have Jess Hill's book, See What You Made Me Do and highly recommend it - she's the one who inspired the tweet about Stockholm Syndrome.

Jess Hill gave an interview with vocal women's campaigner Laura Richards on her Crime Analyst podcast about coercive control and domestic abuse, and that is also well worth a listen.

Part 1 - www.crime-analyst.com/36-the-crime-analyst-ep-36/

Part 2 - www.crime-analyst.com/37-the-crime-analyst-ep-37/

Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person

Also overlooking the fact that lots of female criminality is orchestrated by or connected to male behaviour or influence

@Pedalpushers

I don't think it is just hatred of women. I think men are just violent beings and bad things happen when they can't control themselves. Look how quick a drunk man is to attack another man who CAN fight back. Noone is safe from men.

I genuinely never realised till I came on Mumsnet how common the idea is that men are a class of people who are just unable to control themselves. Like toddlers. But bigger.

You get on the OW threads where some women come on to say men cannot help themselves and so it's for women to police men's marital fidelity by not shagging them.

And on here, men are not responsible for their violent behaviour 'cos they can't help themselves.

Why are some people so keen to resolve men of responsibility for their own free choices?

I think it's because many see woman as objects. What I think is confusing nowadays is we rightly have all the metoo movement etc but I feel women are objectified more than ever.

Its all power.

When I was excepted into University (Now best in country) and ex at the time called me a loser. When I excelled in my career and wanted to do further training another ex said I was ‘psychotic and cannot be happy with what I have’. When another ex found out I made significantly more £ than him the whole relationship dynamic changed and he would shout ‘money’ at me whenever I walked into a room. A more recent guy I was dating entirely belittled my career ‘all you do is X’ (this guy had never gone to University or college and had inherited his dads business).

Its a tale as old as time - The only person I dated who had an equal footing with was someone who earned the same as me and had the same qualifications. However he had to move to America.

I have learned the hard way that Men do not waste their time with woman who are perceived as ‘above’ them in anyway whatsoever. My mother used to tell me this when I was 18 and I was so brainwashed at the time with such little expierence I did not believe her. She said my career, personality and looks will likely mean I am single for a very long time. She was right. I suppose I could be coupled up but it would be with a man who negs me and constantly puts me down. I have always had comments like above. Its exhaustion and led me to believe it was something I was doing - I read book after book about ‘feminine’ energy and dating games.

It’s because society (all of us) permit it to happen, if respect for women was enforced from day one it would reduce the incidence greatly.

I agree

Yes! Twat ex was older than me, but no formal qualifications and was too good to get an actual job, unless the right one turned up. I had 2 years of being told that I thought I knew it all cos I'd been to uni, but 'in the real world'. And I was boring/stupid and everyone thought I was up myself.

Didn't stop him pissing my money up the wall though.

"There should be education around misogyny in schools the same way there is about other forms of hate. "

It's telling that there isn't. The way upskirting, Street harrasment and even stalking isn't taken seriously, shoes were our place is in society.

Upskirting & harassment is definitely in safeguarding training. Hopefully this will help but I think a huge problem is society contradicts itself.

Eg we know that a women should wear what she wants or be sexually active etc but in a criminal case her outfit & past history can be used against her.

Yes also consider the phrase ‘single mother’ this is used as a slight on the woman most of the time, what we should be saying is ‘absent father’ why does the one who stayed get the shame from society?

good point

I do think some underestimate the importance of a good father figure. My father did an excellent job of bringing me up to not "sit still & be quiet", "I can achieve anything" etc & the relationship between my parents gave me good boundaries on what I should demand.