Why do men do this

[Tevion28]

Following on from the Ashling Murthy murder and the likes of the Sarah Everard I've been thinking alot as to why men do this and I can only think that they must have a deep hatred for women and feel threatened by us for some reason. What do you all think I'm not convinced that these men all have mental health problems myself.

[quote JeshusHChr]@Trippingslippingx1
May I ask how old you are? I am genuinely shocked by those comments from your female friends. I am getting on for 50 and my friends when I was young (or now) would never have said any of that.[/quote]
30s BUT my profession is very traditional with a huge amount of misogynoy

Some of these ‘friends’ have been ghosted as hard as the man in question I assure you

@Butteryflakycrust83

The one example I sum up to my husband whenever we discuss the differences between men and women is one day I was walking to work, 8am on a Monday, and some random bloke came up to me and whispered 'ANAL!'

Women do not do that.

In that moment, that man felt like he had power over me.

Mine isn't even at bad as yours But I was walking minding my own business when probably a teenage lad walked past with his mates And decided to get right up to me no warning and scream in my face unexpectedly I think he only screamed hello But it really shocked me and put me on edge. And I just think if I told someone that they'd think what of it But it did shock me and put me on edge

@dafey

It is an exhausting exhausting narrative and one that seems to be getting worse the stronger woman become.

I think women use this narrative to reassure themselves if they "do the right things" they will be safe.

Completely agree I know some who delude themselves into relationships with complete abusers and will swear blind down dead ‘they would never put up with that’

When I dump them they laugh ‘how do YOU attract these guys’ - I feel like saying they are everywhere including the man you were stupid enough to marry, I just dump them at the first red flags and dont continue dating them.

[quote sillysmiles]@CaveMum - I have heard about the Stockholm Syndrome thing before.
Also, apparently, the whole "fight or flight" response is only true in men and the study that initially established it was done in men. Women in a fight/flight scenario actually often go down a third route whereby they talk, rationalise and try to appease the attacker.
I don't have a link for that - but it was from a podcast I listened to by Laura Richards - ex Scotland yard criminal behavioural analyst person.[/quote]
Thanks, yes I remembered after I posted where I had heard it. It was Laura Richard’s Crime Analyst podcast where she interviewed journalist Jess Hill who has done great work covering DV and coercive control in Australia.

Something to do with the early mother-son relationship where the boy was worshipped by the mother? Since no woman could sustain that sort of devotion, at some stage the boy will have felt let down by the mother - perhaps she might have reprimanded him when ordinarily she wouldn't. He wants to 'punish' the mother for not worshipping him in the way he feels he is entitled to, so he projects that perceived failing onto a woman he does not know?

with greatest respect, that's not what we are talking about here

Only because it doesn't fit the Mumsnet narrative that it's men Vs women when the data shows actually it's very different it's about power over weaker people.

I saw and witnessed incidents of women hitting men which were ignored till the men fought back then others became involved. I think female DV happens less only because the retaliation could be significant.

I think it is a power thing people attack those less powerful than them. So men to women (unless the woman expects backup) women children (again unless the child is likely to fight back) and car drivers on cyclists.

The move to deny that bodily sexed reality is diluting the way policy and law makers talk about violence against women and what we should do to tackle it.

If you can't name the problem.....

@CaveMum yes sorry I hadn't read the whole thread when I posted that, and then went back and read through it.

I really remember being fascinated with freeze thing. It makes so much sense.

It has changed vastly for women in a relative short space of time and some men can't deal with it - even the young ones who were not brought up in that world.

"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression".

@Mouseonmychair

with greatest respect, that's not what we are talking about here

Only because it doesn't fit the Mumsnet narrative that it's men Vs women when the data shows actually it's very different it's about power over weaker people.

I saw and witnessed incidents of women hitting men which were ignored till the men fought back then others became involved. I think female DV happens less only because the retaliation could be significant.

I think it is a power thing people attack those less powerful than them. So men to women (unless the woman expects backup) women children (again unless the child is likely to fight back) and car drivers on cyclists.

Well, firstly you are ignoring the sexual element. When straight men sexually assault women it is undeniably a man vs women thing. Its rooted in both their sexes.

Secondly. Women are weaker than men. So your argument that its a power over weaker people thing, supports the analysis that it is a men vs women thing, because the male population is stronger than the female population.

Secondly. Women are weaker than men. So your argument that its a power over weaker people thing, supports the analysis that it is a men vs women thing, because the male population is stronger than the female population.

I think what they're trying to say - certainly what I've said numerous times - is that feminism/mumsnet likes to pretend it's a cultural issue, with 'men' hating or looking down on 'women'.

It's not. As a society, ie what is socially and culturally acceptable, we're doing just fine. No decent person condones violence against women or indeed against anyone else, and nobody thinks rape is ok. We have laws in place, which are rigorously enforced, to combat miscreants.

The problem is that as long as humans will exist, at least in this shape and form, there will be criminals. Including violent criminals. And criminals on the whole tend to go for easy prey. Which in context of men and women, is usually the women.

This isn't evidence of a broken society, or something that can be fixed by education or whatever. As a society we know and accept that violence is bad. But the sad reality is that there will always be those who don't care, and still engage in crime.

There is no overarching patriarchy. There are only flawed human beings, who will usually go for those weaker than they.

BellatricksStrange.

I disagree. We are broken as a society.There is so much more that governments could be doing to protect women.

They should launch a nationwide progarm:
That every year looks into safety for women across the country. There should be money put into this. How it is working, how it can be improved. This should be reviewed every year.

They are doing fuck all for women at the moment.

nobody thinks rape is ok

I don't agree with this. I think that everyone agrees that an armed stranger hopping out from behind a bush to attack a decently dressed sober woman coming home from her flower arranging class is not OK, but where rapes usually happen in real life, there is a lot of ambivalence in people's attitudes.

No decent person condones violence against women or indeed against anyone else, and nobody thinks rape is ok.

On rape:

• Well what did she expect would happen when she went back to his hotel? You don't go back just for a chat

• Why didn't she fight back or shout for help at the time? Saying something rhe next day is just buyer's remorse

• She's just accusing him for the fame/money/revenge

• She was wearing that outfit/walking through that part of town, its an invitation for trouble

• She was so drunk, how does she know she didn't say yes?/She was so drunk she should have known men would take advantage (usually followed by an analogy about how you can't leaving your keys in your car and then get annoyed if someone steals it)

• She said yes to him all those other times

• He was her boyfriend/husband, he had expectations that consent was implied/he has needs/rights

On domestic abuse and other violence:

• if it was that bad, she'd have left

• she's just saying it so she gets a bigger divorce payout

• yeah but did she antagonise him?/she knows he has a temper

• women can be just as bad, she hit him too

• he's always been decent to me/he's a good mate/he's a good dad

These are not unusual comments, you only need to glance at threads on here, comments sections on articles or social media, or even join in on conversations with people you know and you will find views like this.

Yes, people think rape is wrong and they think violence is wrong but they didn't mean their mate Nigel or their brother or their adult son or their workmate when they were talking about it being wrong because that woman was blind drunk and he just did what any lad would do when given such an easy goal, her word against his and false accusations happen all the time, innocent until proven guilty, and there's no way he used to smack his ex-wife around but even if he did she was a mouthy cow anyway and probably goaded him into it with the things she used to say to him.

We have laws in place, which are rigorously enforced, to combat miscreants.

58,856, rapes were reported in 2020-2021, of this just 2,102 led to a prosecution. And that's only the reported rapes, current figures suggest around five in every six rapes/sexual assaults goes unreported. The conviction process for the victims is brutal with their private life laid bare and the prosecution on a mission to paint them as a lying whore who definitely said yes.

We do not have laws in place that rigorously deal with sexual offenders.

@BellatricksStrange

How does every woman I know then have a story about being sexually assaulted, cohersed, manipulated, gaslit, physically or emotionally assaulted at the hands of a man? Whether an ex, current or random from a dating app?

How do most Men I know post picture perfect lives on social media and walk away from situations without an repercussions?

Patriarchy and internalised misogynoy is prevalent in us all without realising.

Just this week my Sisters friend had a colleague who decided to be a single mother by choice as she was done with the nonsense of the Men she was meeting. I was telling about this and her immediate response was to smirk and say ‘lets look at the state of her then’. Her face fell when seen she was a 5ft 11, slim and beautiful lawyer. So this is what we are up against. Knee jerk reactions from an overwhelming majority of people who have been socialised to fundamentally ALWAYS assume the woman has to have something wrong with her, be in the wrong and done wrong - when things go haywire with a man.

@dafey

For example I wouldn't go jogging through the park at the end of my road at night, if something did happen to me, some would blame me for being there.

I agree this is not right. But I'm curious, if I were to leave £100 cash or the latest iphone on the dashboard of my car in a not-especially nice neighborhood at night. If I came back in the morning to find it stolen, would you be just as outraged at the comments implying I was partly at fault for leaving the valuables on display?

Come to think of it, are you as outraged by police messages and adverts exhorting people not to leave valuables on display, as you are by the same sort of messages telling vulnerable people to take precautions? What's the difference?

No decent person condones violence against women or indeed against anyone else, and nobody thinks rape is ok.

A poster on this thread does think it's ok. I quoted them.

One of my friends attended a wedding a few year ago. The groom hates her for telling his fiance to break up with her. During the wedding he got drug and told my friend ‘Ha ha this will NEVER be you’.

Roll on five years and he has battered the wife and left her.

So Men who batter woman and leave them after marrying still have the audiacity to think woman are upset they do not have the chance to be lucky to be chosen by these lotharios.

I agree this is not right. But I'm curious, if I were to leave £100 cash or the latest iphone on the dashboard of my car in a not-especially nice neighborhood at night. If I came back in the morning to find it stolen, would you be just as outraged at the comments implying I was partly at fault for leaving the valuables on display?

Why do you think it's appropriate to compare women to inanimate goods? You know we can't leave our vaginas in a safe, don't you? You can't be out and about as a woman without your vagina.

@PleasantBirthday

I agree this is not right. But I'm curious, if I were to leave £100 cash or the latest iphone on the dashboard of my car in a not-especially nice neighborhood at night. If I came back in the morning to find it stolen, would you be just as outraged at the comments implying I was partly at fault for leaving the valuables on display?

Why do you think it's appropriate to compare women to inanimate goods? You know we can't leave our vaginas in a safe, don't you? You can't be out and about as a woman without your vagina.

In todays episode of which object can woman be compared to - we have IPhones and Cash.

Ladies and Gentleman - this is patriachy

@Mufasa1118

BellatricksStrange.

I disagree. We are broken as a society.There is so much more that governments could be doing to protect women.

They should launch a nationwide progarm:
That every year looks into safety for women across the country. There should be money put into this. How it is working, how it can be improved. This should be reviewed every year.

They are doing fuck all for women at the moment.

What for example? I mean imagine I'm the PM and I'm giving a budget of £10bn, what would you do with that to make sure no woman gets attacked? I'm truly curious to hear what you think might actually be done.

@BellatricksStrange I would say my feelings are also shaped by childhood. I grew up in a then rough part of London & there are things I do as 2nd nature because of that, same for male members of family. Eg not having headphones in, phone out, car doors unlocked, not cutting through parks etc

Of course I wouldn't leave money out in the open, however I think there is a difference between making your home look less opportunistic to a burglar & women being able to live their lives. Do you think women should control their movements and lives to protect themselves?

So Men who batter woman and leave them after marrying still have the audiacity to think woman are upset they do not have the chance to be lucky to be chosen by these lotharios.

I also think there is an issue with some women being accepting of appalling behaviour. You see it on MNs threads etc & you think why are these women putting up with this crap & even questioning themselves.

*58,856, rapes were reported in 2020-2021, of this just 2,102 led to a prosecution. And that's only the reported rapes, current figures suggest around five in every six rapes/sexual assaults goes unreported. The conviction process for the victims is brutal with their private life laid bare and the prosecution on a mission to paint them as a lying whore who definitely said yes.

We do not have laws in place that rigorously deal with sexual offenders.*

These stats are fairly comparable to other violent crimes, especially those done in secret with no evidence. How many thefts and burglaries do you think end up in a conviction?

The problem with getting a conviction is that sexual crimes are almost always done without any witnesses etc. Also, it's not sex per se that's a crime, but non-consensual sex. Meaning it's not enough for the CPS to prove sex took place, but that the perpetrator did not reasonably believe there was consent.

How would you change or phrase the law to get a better conviction rate?

How would you change or phrase the law to get a better conviction rate?

The whole process needs to be overhauled, the way "victims" are treated right from the start of often wanting. A family member is in the Met, they wouldn't report a rape in most cases, says it all.