AIBU - DP turned into a covid denier

[Littletownofbirthdaywoes]

So, DP initially followed all the rules, had first 2 vaccines, but has increasingly been swept up by social media "experts" claiming that covid is all a plan to exert control, that for 99.9% of the population it's nothing more than a cold, that the figures are manipulated (everyone apparently dies "with" covid and not "of" covid and actually die of something else. I know. Don't get me started.)

He is refusing to get the booster but seems to think that we will be able to go away this year, abroad - I have pointed out that most countries will expect the booster to be able to claim being fully vaccinated but he refuses to think that this means him, too.

I declined to argue against him over the weekend, there is no point, but I have previously pointed out that I am actually vulnerable due to underlying causes, so I will continue to follow the rules and have vaccinations if deemed necessary.

This has been getting worse over the past weeks and I just don't like it any more. I don't seem to be able to agree with any of his views anymore, we both used to be more middle of the road, but now he seems to be becoming increasingly right wing in his views. I cannot and will not get on board with this, I am more left of centre and he does not like this at all. He gets really frustrated that I won't engage with him in "healthy debate" and refuses to see that healthy debate is not him talking over me and telling me I am wrong before I can even finish my sentence. He thinks that I won't argue as I don't have an argument but it's simply because there is no point. It just causes bad feeling and increasing frustration on his part that I won't subscribe to his views.

We do not have children together, but both have kids, all elder teens or young adults. We are at the point where we can start doing things for ourselves without them. I used to love spending time with him but that is all changing as he delights in pointing out all that is wrong with the narrow world that he lives in (increasingly too "woke" and people need to "grow up and live in the real world"). Initially I figured it was all just a phase against lockdowns and wanting some life back, but as life is returning it just seems to be getting worse.

My refusal to engage with him in argument (so he can feel right and superior) or agreeing with him (so that he is right and I had to give in to him and confirm this) seems to be making it worse but I am not changing my stance just to placate him.

We went through a rough patch last year. Things have been better, he thinks that he is engaging more with me and therefore we as a couple are good, but in reality his views are really putting me off spending the rest of my life with him. AIBU to think that this is a deal breaker for me? Would it be for you?

I am a regular, have nc'd because I posted here for support last year when things weren't great, I used some of the advise and we did seem to get somewhere, but now I am not so sure.

@loloballlolo

there's a really great guy who explains about the brainwashing in this kind of stuff, and how it happens. His name is Steven Hassan, cult expert. He has an informative instagram and twitter which explains how to help family members that have been brainwashed by youtube propaganda as well as some books etc. Well worth a watch for anyone struggling with this kind of stuff with their relatives.

Thank you I will definitely check this out!

@wlv12

My mum died OF covid.

Hence, I wouldn’t give this man the time of day.

I am so very very sorry.

This isn't about a difference of opinions. I'm kind of sick of things being framed solely in this way. Its not true. Its the old adage about journalism:

"If someone says it's raining and another person says it's dry, it's not your job to quote them both. It's your job to look out the window and find out which is true"

This is a similar principle applied to real life. Its about the reality of travel restrictions v an opinion which is going to cause practical difficulties. Someone can choose to argue black is white and think they have 'won' the argument because someone gets to the point where they can't/won't argue back for what ever reason (be it fear, exhaustion or anything else) but it doesn't change things in real terms.

Frankly, I'd book a nice weekend in France away with him. Then let reality work its magic.

Make the point that you will be going regardless of his vaccination status, so that if he finds he's not allowed to go its his problem but you'd really like a holiday with him and its ultimately his choice whether he wants to join you or not.

If he tries to control you and prevent you from going or emotionally blackmails you against going because reality kicks in, you know that the relationship isn't going to work. He's shown his cards and want you to live in his constructed fantasy land of beliefs and has an utter contempt for you.

Opinions are find to have, but you have to still be realistic about how far your opinions will get you if cold hard reality (which often is completely blind and indifferent to political bias) doesn't match up to your belief system.

Novak Djokovic is now the poster boy for this phenomenon but he's far from alone. There have been many full on anti-vaxxers who have been hit with the reality of covid who have lost their lives 'for the cause'.

[quote mindutopia]The birds aren't real thing is just a joke. It's a parody movement created to mock conspiracy theorists - though there are probably lots of people out there who lack appropriate critical thinking skills and believe that too.

www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/technology/birds-arent-real-gen-z-misinformation.html[/quote]
There was an episode of Big Bang Theory where Sheldon and Amy spread a false meme to see how quickly it would get around. It's a similar concept isn't it? Anything that buys into the conspiracy theories and supports their belief that we are all controlled by the rich and powerful.

*Opinions are find to have, but you have to still be realistic about how far your opinions will get you if cold hard reality (which often is completely blind and indifferent to political bias) doesn't match up to your belief system.

Novak Djokovic is now the poster boy for this phenomenon but he's far from alone. There have been many full on anti-vaxxers who have been hit with the reality of covid who have lost their lives 'for the cause'.*

This is so well put. It's true of small scale things too - like employers not paying sick pay for close-contact isolation now that vaccinated employees don't have to do it.

I remember standing outside a bar a few days after the referendum and I ended up talking to a man about the results. He was devastated because he’d voted remain and his husband had voted leave, it had completely torn them apart. He said he didn’t recognise his husband anymore and they were just at loggerheads so were probably going to get a divorce.

I think political beliefs are important to lots of people and it’s difficult to get along with someone who clashes with them. I know DH and I would most likely separate if one of us decided to start voting Tory. I honestly don’t know how people can marry someone politically opposite to them, it baffles me.

The antivax / covid denial movement is a dangerous cult which radicalises vulnerable individuals using potent and subtle propaganda. In time he will probably start talking about the QAnon stuff the Trump supporters ate driven by.
I'm very sorry your DP has fallen victim to this stuff. It will be a very difficult process for him to get out of it and it's likely only to keep getting worse. Not sure what advice to give.

@RedToothBrush

This isn't about a difference of opinions. I'm kind of sick of things being framed solely in this way. Its not true. Its the old adage about journalism:

"If someone says it's raining and another person says it's dry, it's not your job to quote them both. It's your job to look out the window and find out which is true"

This is a similar principle applied to real life. Its about the reality of travel restrictions v an opinion which is going to cause practical difficulties. Someone can choose to argue black is white and think they have 'won' the argument because someone gets to the point where they can't/won't argue back for what ever reason (be it fear, exhaustion or anything else) but it doesn't change things in real terms.

Frankly, I'd book a nice weekend in France away with him. Then let reality work its magic.

Make the point that you will be going regardless of his vaccination status, so that if he finds he's not allowed to go its his problem but you'd really like a holiday with him and its ultimately his choice whether he wants to join you or not.

If he tries to control you and prevent you from going or emotionally blackmails you against going because reality kicks in, you know that the relationship isn't going to work. He's shown his cards and want you to live in his constructed fantasy land of beliefs and has an utter contempt for you.

Opinions are find to have, but you have to still be realistic about how far your opinions will get you if cold hard reality (which often is completely blind and indifferent to political bias) doesn't match up to your belief system.

Novak Djokovic is now the poster boy for this phenomenon but he's far from alone. There have been many full on anti-vaxxers who have been hit with the reality of covid who have lost their lives 'for the cause'.

Agree with the pp this is very well put.

My uni background is history. My eldest is studying history at uni too and we have lively debates on the fact that history can be anything...it doesn't have to be true, as long as you have the sources to back up your argument, it can be manipulated to suit your theory. The same can be said for conspiracies and politically extreme views, there will always, somewhere, be something that supports your view. Even if that evidence is twisted.

Re: the birds thing, isn’t that how the flat earth movement kind of got started? It was a fictional point used to practice debating or is that an urban myth?

I’m old enough to remember when the Flying Spaghetti Monster gained some traction on the internet, it never spiralled outside of its on satire though.

I just feel... life is short. It isn't compulsory to listen endlessly to someone trying to convert you. If my bf converted to Scientology or the Mormons or something and would not shut up about how I should as well, I don't actually have to stay in that situation.

I'm not sure I could stay in a relationship with someone who thought Trump was brilliant. I think I'd just feel, why do I have to be here? And that may be selfish but since my dh died I AM more selfish.

I'd certainly consider whether it's worth going on with this life. If you can be bothered any more. Why the hell should you have to?

Bullying behaviour is unacceptable and yanbu to reconsider the relationship on how he is acting.

I'm no covid denier, having seen the effects in patients in hospital but I do take issue with the death rates issued for example, not all recorded deaths will be from covid directly. A terminal cancer patient who happened to contract covid whilst in hospital and died is not a true covid death, they probably died from the cancer. Ditto for other conditions. A patient who happened to have a mild case of covid In the last month but now recovered, but was sadly was involved in a fatal car accident is not a true covid death and yet that will be included in the figures.

Only you know how he makes you feel and if it isn't good and you can't see you both resolving it then time to call it a day...

Exiting a cult is all about asking the right questions and then leaving it for an individual to figure it out for themselves.

Give them the power to work it out. Just plant the seeds of doubt and let them grow of their own account.

Cults don't let members critically think. They have a script so there is always an answer to things.

Thats why you don't challenge them, you get them to go to a place where they have to start thinking again. Everything is about encouraging them to think with open questions rather than giving solid counter opinions.

So instead of saying 'No pigs can fly' in a closed statement you say 'Oh I've never seen pigs fly. Have you? How do you think they can fly when they are so heavy? I'd live to see the mechanics behind how pigs fly. Do you think you can find out more for me?' in an open question.

One is confrontational, the other is trying to engage critical thought and empower the cult member to think without them realising.

@AledsiPad

The longer this goes on, the longer the "covid deniers" (e.g. people using critical thinking) look more sane than the people who apparently want a perpetual lockdown.

Erm... I get what you mean about the 2 polar extremes being as bad as each other but people misusing critical thinking is surely what you meant to type there?

Thinking about something in a tcritical manner is not critical thinking

Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action.

No covid denier meets any of those criteria. Just as no conspiracy theorist does.

They think they do, based on the fact that they and their information sources do a lot of reading and lot of discussing. But skillful, synthesising, reflection, reasoning a,onsgt other concepts, just doesn't happen!

@Arabelladrinkstea

Neither of you is right or wrong just different opinions and perspectives taken from various sources. However the way how he handles it, is what would have an issue with. You both have as much right to your own personal beliefs without either one of you pushing the others beliefs upon each other.

Some facts are irrefutable; a verifiable source and something made up on an Internet forum are not comparable. But you can’t argue with an idiot.

If op can’t de-radicalise her partner then I suspect it is sadly the end of the relationship. This guy is the one who will really lose out as he will only continue to become more isolated while op moves on with real life.

Do you actually know where he’s getting his information from? Any time I comment about COVID vaccines on here I get accursed of being a Facebook conspiracy theorist, when in actual fact I analyse the government statistics and read the study protocols and results.

Soooo? When are you going to break up with him?

The same can be said for conspiracies and politically extreme views, there will always, somewhere, be something that supports your view. Even if that evidence is twisted.

Yes. But an apple will still always fall downwards from a tree even if the ideology says it doesn't. The sun will still always set in the west even if you rename the compass.

Underlying material reality can not be changed. The laws of physics, biology and chemistry have no regard for what some fuckwit on the internet thinks.

If France or Australia decides its laws - as is its soverign right to do - then some Brit (or Serb) who doesn't agree with them doesn't have a lot of comeback. They can make a fuss in the press or on social media, but its not going to gain them entry or endere them much to the government they are mouthing off about.

Liberalism and freedom of opinion is fine - I'm a big advocate of the principle. Where the problem lies is where it collides with a problem. Some problems can be worked around / balanced. Others, not so much.

We'd do well to learn the difference and to teach kids the same.

Omg, his stupidity would be too much for me, it’s humiliating to be associated with someone like him. Like what would people think of ME when they hear the stupidity literally tumbling from that mouth.

@Rainartist and what about all the people who died of or with Covid but they didn’t do it quick enough to fall within the recorded statistics?

And not everyone who gets Covid takes a test or even knows they have it which is why the ONS does independent research which usually shows the numbers for community transmission are actually higher.

I fully support his right to choose just as he supported mine even though he doesn't believe in vaccines.

What does "he doesn't believe in vaccines mean? Does he mean that he doesn't believe they exist or that he doesn't believe they work?

I do have friends who vote Tory / Republican (though they have voted for Obama /Biden in the face of Trump who they do not see as a true Republican). I can respect their views and values, especially in relation to personal responsibility, whilst not agreeing with them. In some cases I cannot respect their views (on abortion, homosexuality) but we remain friends because I respect their religious beliefs, which actually come with a lot of positive baggage as well as the negative, we can talk about it and agree to differ. This is something else entirely. If they were to say I was wrong or try to claim some superiority over me or force their views on me then there is no respect for me as an individual and why would I want to spend time with them. I take the point about forcing his ideology to collide with reality but the DH is failing on a personal level as well as ideologically.

[quote Tilltheend99]@Rainartist and what about all the people who died of or with Covid but they didn’t do it quick enough to fall within the recorded statistics?

And not everyone who gets Covid takes a test or even knows they have it which is why the ONS does independent research which usually shows the numbers for community transmission are actually higher.[/quote]
Bit of a de-rail, but you're right @Tilltheend99. Many covid patients die outside the 28 day window because they are ill for a long time before they die. The ONS does actually produce two sets of death data - one for dying within 28 days of a Covid positive test, and the other for those people for whom Covid was a contributory factor and it's listed on their death certificate. The second set of figures is roughly 30,000 higher than the first (the last time I looked).

@Littletownofbirthdaywoes, you have my sympathies. My cousin sounds very similar to your DH and I definitely couldn't live with him. Happy to let him have his own views, but the being talked down to is awful.

@Littletownofbirthdaywoes i hear you
I have kinda lost my dad due to this.

You forgot about the chem trails tho. That's why planes fly over and criss cross each other

[quote Tilltheend99]@Rainartist and what about all the people who died of or with Covid but they didn’t do it quick enough to fall within the recorded statistics?

And not everyone who gets Covid takes a test or even knows they have it which is why the ONS does independent research which usually shows the numbers for community transmission are actually higher.[/quote]
The whole debate on this is why we should be looking at excess deaths AND causes of deaths.

If we have a large number of excess deaths and very high number of people dying with / of covid what can you conclude? Its probably covid.

It does get more complex as time progresses and you have restrictions / vaccines etc.

Now we should be looking for excessive numbers of deaths from other causes (compared to pre-covid levels) to get a grasp of the scale of the indirect impact of the pandemic.

Indirect deaths are still relevant and important to note in order to find out the overall impact and how well we have balanced things and what steps we might need to take in future.

There shouldn't be singular mechanisms to measure things.

I have got frustrated by this and the narrow looking at covid only - it effectively is the other end of the extreme.

Realistically most things fall in between. Covid is no exception.

Anyway I disgress from the OP's problem...

@PleasantBirthday

I fully support his right to choose just as he supported mine even though he doesn't believe in vaccines.

What does "he doesn't believe in vaccines mean? Does he mean that he doesn't believe they exist or that he doesn't believe they work?

My DP stressed regularly that they don't stop people catching covid or passing it on, thereby completely missing the point of vaccines.

If he chooses not to be vaccinated that is his choice. What I don't want is his new ideology being talked AT me without the ability for me to present the other side. I would happily welcome a reasoned debate.