AIBU - DP turned into a covid denier

[Littletownofbirthdaywoes]

So, DP initially followed all the rules, had first 2 vaccines, but has increasingly been swept up by social media "experts" claiming that covid is all a plan to exert control, that for 99.9% of the population it's nothing more than a cold, that the figures are manipulated (everyone apparently dies "with" covid and not "of" covid and actually die of something else. I know. Don't get me started.)

He is refusing to get the booster but seems to think that we will be able to go away this year, abroad - I have pointed out that most countries will expect the booster to be able to claim being fully vaccinated but he refuses to think that this means him, too.

I declined to argue against him over the weekend, there is no point, but I have previously pointed out that I am actually vulnerable due to underlying causes, so I will continue to follow the rules and have vaccinations if deemed necessary.

This has been getting worse over the past weeks and I just don't like it any more. I don't seem to be able to agree with any of his views anymore, we both used to be more middle of the road, but now he seems to be becoming increasingly right wing in his views. I cannot and will not get on board with this, I am more left of centre and he does not like this at all. He gets really frustrated that I won't engage with him in "healthy debate" and refuses to see that healthy debate is not him talking over me and telling me I am wrong before I can even finish my sentence. He thinks that I won't argue as I don't have an argument but it's simply because there is no point. It just causes bad feeling and increasing frustration on his part that I won't subscribe to his views.

We do not have children together, but both have kids, all elder teens or young adults. We are at the point where we can start doing things for ourselves without them. I used to love spending time with him but that is all changing as he delights in pointing out all that is wrong with the narrow world that he lives in (increasingly too "woke" and people need to "grow up and live in the real world"). Initially I figured it was all just a phase against lockdowns and wanting some life back, but as life is returning it just seems to be getting worse.

My refusal to engage with him in argument (so he can feel right and superior) or agreeing with him (so that he is right and I had to give in to him and confirm this) seems to be making it worse but I am not changing my stance just to placate him.

We went through a rough patch last year. Things have been better, he thinks that he is engaging more with me and therefore we as a couple are good, but in reality his views are really putting me off spending the rest of my life with him. AIBU to think that this is a deal breaker for me? Would it be for you?

I am a regular, have nc'd because I posted here for support last year when things weren't great, I used some of the advise and we did seem to get somewhere, but now I am not so sure.

Historically, the line that "the government are trying to control you covertly through fear" has always been in the fascist play book. Governments actually trying to terrorise their populations into docility are just way more direct, on account of having control of the army, the police and the judiciary. Sewing defacto distrust of both governments and consensus science has always been a tactic of populist right wingers. In this context, this discourse has left people afraid of their own government, afraid of medical science, and distrustful of their neighbours. I have seen people become properly agitated and stressed by the fact the people around them are wearing masks. Friends and families driven apart because of the terror struck into them by the belief that vast groups of people, from the prime minister down to pt nurses at the local care home are all In on some vast plot to make you docile. From where I am standing, it's really not the government trying to manipulate through fear, but the story that they are is designed much more explicitly to terrorise and manipulate

He sounds deeply unpleasant, and that is just for his obvious racism, let alone the fact that he seems to have little respect for you. It is your call if you wish to grow old with someone like that.

OP, a lot of people have become increasingly radicalized over the past decade.

Based on what you said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was QAnon adjacent.

It's not a policy debate, it's irrational and quite frankly dangerous. When you get to the point where you're near conversations about birds not existing, about Trump and the generals secretly planning to take down a cabal of baby killing celebrities (it's moved on from that, but still), about JFK Jr being alive and secretly working with Trump, about covid medicines being injected with tiny glass particles to kill you in the hospital, about your own urine being a better defense against covid than the vaccine -- you're in the land of the irrational.

It's exhausting. You cannot argue them out of it and you cannot logic them out of it. Listen to the Rabbit Hole podcast from the New York Times; I found that useful.

And even if it isn't that extreme, even if it's just him spouting that white people are hard done by, that Donald Trump is a role model, that the insurrectionists were patriots, that the government is out to get you: even if it's only that, there's no rule that you have to be in a relationship with someone who believes that, who forces you to listen to that, and who runs roughshod over you when you disagree with that.

I certainly couldn't do it.

Not all Covid deniers are right wing, there are plenty of loony lefties too.

But anyway, pre Covid, this sort of behaviour is why I left my last long term partner. Always wanting to drag me into arguments on things I had no interest in so he could lord it over me how superior he was. He did get very right wing, joined loads of horrible political groups on Facebook and was sort of indoctrinated. Took a very polarised position on everything where I'm more someone who sees both sides but holds my opinion. He would just tell me I was wrong all the time. And shut down any argument I was "winning" (with simple facts) by telling me I was just falling fir the propaganda. It was exhausting and pointless.

I thank my lucky stars s I split with him before covid, I'd probably have had to kill him or myself if I'd had to put up with his shit through all this.

*somewhat right wing?

He sounds about 6 miles further right than 'somewhat' right wing.*

Since when has white male supremacy only counted as “somewhat” right wing? I know the Overton window has shifted and we do have a lardy blob of entitled science denying white narcissistic male privilege in charge of the country but please don’t say there is no hope for those of us without a penis?

well although im not a covid denier . obviously its real , im afraid i do share some of your partners views , it would be difficult for me to live with someone who blindly believed the propaganda and crap this govement churn out , but that said though i wouldnt be going on about it constantly though to try and convince someone i lived with to agree with me and i hate all that woke shite as well

it does sound like you and he are at a crossroads though , it just sounds like something seems to have clicked and now hes questioning things more whereas before he just muddled along with it all .

Think - Trump was brilliant, was robbed of the second term, FBI infiltrated and caused the Jan 6th riots at the Capitol, the left are "woke" (yes to a PP very much used as a derogatory term), non- white race is being over-represented in media to appease BLM, etc etc

He was a dick before covid, wasn't he?

I think is just Frank with him.

“I strongly disagree with you and you won’t convince me otherwise. You need to stop bringing it up because it is making me dread spending time with you and question our commitment. For the sake of our relationship, please drop it”

This is a real cultural shift, and does seem to be targeting men. It goes along with the anti-woman radicalisation. It seems to me they target male feelings of loss of control and try to give shape to those feelings in a concrete enemy. The victim then gets to feel superior for having figured it out, blameless for their own poweless position (after all, the entire west is against them!) and morally superior for resisting, all without ever having to confront their own inadequacies. They are perfect, it's just wokeism / women / communists / BLM trying to bring them down.

@IncompleteSenten

somewhat right wing?

He sounds about 6 miles further right than 'somewhat' right wing.

This, with bells on. It was never like this before 2016/17, I was on the verge of leaving when lockdown hit, it only became an issue (or verbalised more often, I certainly didn't notice it before Trump and Brexit) shortly before this. At the time I was dealing with a lot of issues with my children and SEN support for them, they were coming first and in my imaginary list of dealing with things he was not top at the time. By the time he did get to the top, covid hit, I was working 12-14 hours a day wfh and managing teens and GCSE's, and it was just pushed back and pushed back. We had the discussion last year, things did get so much better, but towards the end of last year it is back and getting worse.

@AgathaAllAlong

This is a real cultural shift, and does seem to be targeting men. It goes along with the anti-woman radicalisation. It seems to me they target male feelings of loss of control and try to give shape to those feelings in a concrete enemy. The victim then gets to feel superior for having figured it out, blameless for their own poweless position (after all, the entire west is against them!) and morally superior for resisting, all without ever having to confront their own inadequacies. They are perfect, it's just wokeism / women / communists / BLM trying to bring them down.

You have pretty much described him perfectly.

My friend also thinks Trump was brilliant ! She is such a nice girl normally ,I enjoyed chatting with her .I now seem to have a never ending list of "information" sent to be from right wing doctors ,journalists and so on .Try to ignore most TBH. Does anyone know how to delete Whats App messages ,without the sender knowing? Just fed up of piles of messages in my account! Dont want to fall out but just too much!

You are no longer compatible. Cut yourself free.

My mum died OF covid.

Hence, I wouldn’t give this man the time of day.

I wouldn't be bothered by his views on covid, I don't agree with them and am triple vaccinated, but I don't feel strongly everyone else should and I also think there are some elements of the pressure around vaccination/not in any way questioning that narrative that are problematic. I have a couple of very conspiracy minded friends; I wouldn't get stressed about his beliefs; and the vaccination passport issue will solve itself (and cause problems for a whole other lot of people if it has to be a recent one, as lots of us will be out of date and not willing to have a fourth round!)

The bigger issues to me are a) his right-wing views, esp around BLM and Trump which I find far more offensive than his view around covid and b) the fact he wants someone to rant to instead of a partner.

I don't think you should collapse your marriage over his covid beliefs, it's more about whether you love him, want to spend time with him, have good enough communication to get around this, and want to make a life together in the future.

My husband was very religious, I am not, it wasn't a problem for me as he didn't seek to impose that on me or my life, equally I was happy for him to observe religious holidays. You don't have to split up if you believe very different things, but you do have to be prepared to be co-operative and compromise and communicate with each other, which it sounds like he struggles with.

I wouldn't leave him over covid as it will look very different in two years time, not the same at all; his beliefs may be mainstream by then (as people forget just how awful and terrible those first two years were, and how not mild covid was).

I dont think this is about views, its about arrogance and the honeymoon period is over, all the other things have fallen away and you are left with what irritates you about him

Yeah, those views on Trump and tha Capitol riots would have sealed the deal for me long ago. I have family in the US who have fallen down that rabbit hole and have just cut them off.

Could there be a mental health issue going on?

Do you actually like him?

I bet if you said ‘ok I will debate with you and in the interests of freedom of speech I wish to have a debate over how stupid and ugly your kids are’ he’d shut it down pretty quick. These ‘debate’ people are always happy to do so when it’s on issues which negatively impact other people and not themselves.

@9ofpentangles

Could there be a mental health issue going on?

I really don't think so, but I have wondered this and haven't dismissed it.

Also...I know that not everyone subscribes to the covid rules in the same way, but my issue is how he deals with his views and my views. I would be quite happy to let him carry on, only he can't do this quietly without trying to convince me. I have said to him that I don't want to discuss the issues but he takes this as me knowing that I am wrong.

There will very much be a time where we have to get on with life. I suppose my covid denier example is just part of the bigger picture regarding his views which are becoming more vocal and more entrenched in a position that I absolutely cannot get on board with. And I do not want to be associated with his views either as they are pretty much the opposite of mine, or certainly have become so as time has gone on.

The birds aren't real thing is just a joke. It's a parody movement created to mock conspiracy theorists - though there are probably lots of people out there who lack appropriate critical thinking skills and believe that too.

www.nytimes.com/2021/12/09/technology/birds-arent-real-gen-z-misinformation.html

The dealbreaker here for me is the unwillingness to let you have your say. He doesn't respect your opinion and respect is the key to love. No respect, no love.

there's a really great guy who explains about the brainwashing in this kind of stuff, and how it happens. His name is Steven Hassan, cult expert. He has an informative instagram and twitter which explains how to help family members that have been brainwashed by youtube propaganda as well as some books etc. Well worth a watch for anyone struggling with this kind of stuff with their relatives.

@SocialConnection

Do you actually like him?

Not so much, not any more.

The sad thing is we used to be so so good together. But now he doesn't seem to want a conversation that doesn't involve one of his new views.