Ireland . Tonight . A woman beaten to death in broad daylight

[goodyear2021]

I know this is predominantly
A UK site but I am so full of rage .
Beautiful young girl. 23 year old teacher went for a run at 4pm beaten to death.yesterday afternoon .
What can we do to stop this relaxed attitude to violence against women. We are all hurting here.
AIBU to think that violence against some. Women ever ever be fucking taken seriously .
110 convictions and out on bail murder Ed Ashling on a run way called after another woman who was brutally murdered there.
I'm full
Of sadness and fucking rage . I'm
Done with this shit for our girls.

One report said the Gardai think she might have been stalked.

I suppose they have DNA which may be why they are so confident it wasn't the initial suspect?

I'm hesitant to even write that but its already on the internet.

I agree that the only way we’ll definitely know is when they arrest and charge someone, but the stats do bear out that 90% of murdered women are killed by someone they know.

Either way it’s a horrific crime and my thoughts are with Aishling’s family and friends.

@2Gen the death penalty? Have you gone mad? Are we to be barbaric too? Should 'the state' be allowed to murder citizens? My god, I despair

It's awful, that poor teacher and her family.

I was teaching a group of year 11s (15-16 Yr olds) this week, boys I'd known and taught since they were 11. They asked me if I bumped into them in 10 years time if I'd have a drink with them. I send probably not as it wouldn't be appropriate and as I walked away from their table I heard them say "Well she'll be getting raped in 10 years if she does." Just as casual as that, as if rape is just a normal part of conversation. The toxic masculinity I see in my school and the wider community scares me for the world my daughter and the girls I teach are growing up in.

@user1471519931 Oh please! You want to keep murdering scumbags alive? For what purpose?! They don't have to go around raping and murdering anyone. They choose to. Death penalty means they won't do it again.

Erm...

Death penalty v contentious.

Threatens to derail thread into well PP seems would be a nasty row.

Which would be vv disrespectful to this woman being murdered.

Sorry didn't realise this was in AIBU! apologies for previous post. I'm on another thread on this on another board and got them mixed up.

So ignore that post please.

Threads on effects of this nature and tbh women/girls being attacked/violated/abducted/murdered etc.

When it's about it in general, the comments are similar but much more about govt, police, messages children get etc.

When it's a specific case. This woman who was in this place. Time of day. What doing etc. The comments like lots on this thread are more numerous.

And for many I definitely understand the reason for writing, and also that they come from a place of what can be done. They do tend to express the widespread, deep down acceptance that men will do what they do, and that's just how it is. So given that. What ideas are there to improve things for women/girls.

Tbc sorry keep losing posts.

Thing is they feel like positive things but they don't actually do anything about the problem. They are about individuals trying to avoid men with bad intent. Anyone who gets away that's great of course. Thing is. He'll just find another victim. So the actual prevalence is not reduced. And there are other potential big problems with that approach as well.

I saw this on the news and i couldn’t believe it if I’m being honest, I was totally shocked.
She was jogging at 4 pm, which is totally normal, and there are many people around so how can this happen?
I am so very very sorry and I send my condolences to her family.

@HPandTheNeverEndingBedtime

How horrific and disgusting. I hope you reported them appropriately to the head of department/headteacher and took it to the furthest extent you were able. I’d be disgusted to find out a comment like that was ignored (or even said) in my kid’s schools. I’d have been hauling parents in and repeating it in front of them if I could to see what they thought of their sons.

But it’s not likely to be an intimate partner crime by a public canal, surely?

Whether or not that's what's happened with this sad case, yes it could very well be.

I see it on here. A lot of people think that once a woman has left an abusive partner, that's it and she's safe. Unfortunately this isn't always true. They're actually at highest risk when leaving - and many are murdered after they've left.

There's too often almost sole focus on telling women to LTB - with little to no support after she does.

[quote user1471519931]@2Gen the death penalty? Have you gone mad? Are we to be barbaric too? Should 'the state' be allowed to murder citizens? My god, I despair[/quote]
The alternative is more deaths of women. You can't cure misogyny. Hardly anyone gets life in jail. What's left?

I don’t think it really works that way. The death penalty for murders isn’t that likely to stop people being murdered, I think that’s been pretty well proven. Because for the person to get the death penalty they’d need to have already committed the deterrent.

Anyway how can you square it away morally? Either it’s acceptable to murder others, in which case we can’t be cross when people do it, or it’s unacceptable, in which case we definitely can’t do it to others.

What I do think desperately needs doing is stronger sentences and intervention before it gets to this. I mean the initial suspect has over a hundred convictions and he’s just bobbing about the streets. I know he didn’t do this one, but what does that tell people?

And lots of murderers (especially of women and kids) have previous convictions for domestic violence, rape, sexual assault etc. Sometimes you look at a person’s history of crime and think ‘well yeah. Of course he was going to kill somebody one day, it’s a shock it took this long.’ But these people are allowed out to wander the streets and hurt more people.

Committed the offence. No idea why it changed itself. But yeah even if you can morally agree with the death penalty (I don’t) it’s been proved that it doesn’t lower crime rates.

I agree @Kanaloa

A fair few kill themselves after the crime (either immediately or when in prison) so we know that the death penalty isn't a good deterrent.

There's also a risk that an innocent person might be executed. Some cases have very clear evidence, but there are sometimes cases where it seems to be very clear evidence at the time - but further down the line it turns out not to be afterall. Mix ups and mistakes (and occasionally corruption) happen.

What I do think desperately needs doing is stronger sentences and intervention before it gets to this.

This. Don't release someone who is still a danger to the public and provide more opportunities for victims to not only get away but to remain safe afterwards.

The majority reaction in society, as shown on this thread. Illustrates really clearly the fundamental reasons that men committing sex offences (from flashing, frotting etc all the way up to rape murder) against women/girls aren't tackled in any meaningful way.

This sort of thing-

Women girls all learn self defence. Good idea it is exercise, increases confidence and self image generally, group things like that good for MH, etc

If it means some women/girls get away then that's brilliant. And then... He goes off finds another to attack.

Great for anyone who gets away 100%. Realistically, no impact on overall prevalence. So that's changed nothing.

Realistically, likelihood of getting away from man who out to commit extreme crime targeted while out and about.

It's sadly vv low. It's a lovely idea but in practice it's unusual that a girl/woman who is unaware has been targeted by man intent on crime of this level will be able to fight him off. Yes can happen that's brilliant. To think it will really increase our safety from this risk is a lovely fantasy.

And say it did? That if women/girls learned krav maga or whatever they could fight back enough to get away?

Then dodgy men learn it too. Then what?

Or even if they didn't. They'd just target more vulnerable women/girls and/or use more dangerous means of overpowering them.

Younger girls, smaller women. Women with obvious mobility problems. A stick. An arm in plaster. Etc.

Or simply. First thing done sweep legs from under with baseball bat. Hit them round head with it. Throttle from behind. Throw chemical in eyes so can't see. I mean. It makes things worse.

Example DNA testing comes in. Some use bleach on/inside victim of rape to try and destroy evidence since then.

So no overall impact, society feels great women/girls can better protect themselves on an individual basis. Feel like something done.
Possible increase in selection of more vulnerable victims, unintended impact crimes even nastier.

Sad but completely true ^^

Death penalty means they won't do it again.

The death penalty sometimes makes juries hesitate to convict. It's hard enough to get juries to convict now, even if a rape case comes to trial. Society frets about the impact on the poor men of accusations of criminal conduct involving women, how their lives are ruined by bitter or vindictive women...

Is anyone following the case to make misogyny a hate crime?

I tried to read through the Law Commison report but only have gotten through about 150 pages of it.

Does anyone feel it would help if misogyny was a hate crime legally?

No I think it would be counterproductive.

What needs to happen is for the existing laws to be enforced.

For the police to stop ignoring 'low level crime' like flashing. To give those things the priority they deserve.

Flashing been known for DECADES to be high risk escalation. A sex offenders starter crime as it were. That stopping them before escalate prevents terrible crimes down the line.

Couzens would not have been in police and would have been known as escalating risk if they did that. Even in prison etc.

Plus the fact that indecent exposure is not TRIVIAL FFS. men who do this tend to do it a lot. Loads of victims. Schoolgirls v popular with flashers. And just because non contact does not mean v little impact victim. It happens to so many of us often more than once.

FFS it's all OBVIOUS step to take.

And sort out police culture.
Watsapp groups.
Photos of murder victims circulated.
Huge numbers of reports from public sex crimes/dodgy behaviour police officers.
Piled up back room not looked at.

Come on cops! These are no brainers.

Never happens that says it all.

@CheeseMmmm

No I think it would be counterproductive.

What needs to happen is for the existing laws to be enforced.

For the police to stop ignoring 'low level crime' like flashing. To give those things the priority they deserve.

Flashing been known for DECADES to be high risk escalation. A sex offenders starter crime as it were. That stopping them before escalate prevents terrible crimes down the line.

Couzens would not have been in police and would have been known as escalating risk if they did that. Even in prison etc.

Plus the fact that indecent exposure is not TRIVIAL FFS. men who do this tend to do it a lot. Loads of victims. Schoolgirls v popular with flashers. And just because non contact does not mean v little impact victim. It happens to so many of us often more than once.

FFS it's all OBVIOUS step to take.

Agree.

The emphasis on women having to protect themselves has got to change - because it doesn't address the root cause which is male violence and misogyny - and because it doesn't work, as evidenced by the fact that a woman can be murdered anywhere and at any time regardless of how "careful" she is.

With anything to do with MVAWG it always comes back to that. And it's embedded so so deeply across society.

What did she do wrong?

And the hideous also widely embedded hand in hand fundamental.

Need to be very very careful indeed that this is all it seems. It's imperative to protect men around this sort of thing. Even a name mentioned in pub can bring s good man down permanently.

The amount of instinctive urge to protect males full stop is v damaging.

The popularity of things like.
Find excuse.

He was under strain.
Apparently she was having affair.
She undermined him constantly. Just snapped. Sad for the children killed as well.
What did she expect talking to him, going outside with him, going to party with him?!

Expect she regretted.
Girls make up stuff like this all the time.
Not right a moment of madness mean loss of job/reputation/taken away from family!
Never done anything like this before too harsh.

I mean on and on.