AIBU to not want my son to do rugby because of the culture?

[sausagedogsforever]

I probably am being unreasonable but, my DS aged 5 really wants to do rugby. He once had a taster session, loved it and has asked to go since (for a good year). So shows no signs of getting over the urge.

I am thinking maybe I should take him again to another taster (maybe he won't like it) but also what if he loves it?

I used to like watching rugby and I find the games much more family friendly to watch than football matches. However, I've heard terrible things about rugby players and rugby playing culture? Like gross drinking games, sexism, just all round bad behaviour and treatment of women, initiation games to fit in etc.
is this really what it's like? Does anyone have any experience?
The other issue is injury, it's likely in a sport like that, so do I really want to encourage this?
Any advice welcome. Has anyone got a rugby playing son/husband?
Am I being unreasonable?

@PotatoPie888

The usual tropes about rugby Union equalling nice middle-class, gentlemanly standards and football being played by unpleasant, cheating kids are in full force today.

It’s not the kids in football that pose problems, it’s often the parents. My nephew refs football and is often roundly abused with parents screaming in his face over his decisions. He’s a teenage boy. That culture is a problem.

You should see the under 5's hockey team. That's rough. Beer bong during recess etc.

But seriously, what you described could be applied to any men's team sport. It will depend on the team what it will be like. But maybe you still have a few years before that happens.

Oh fgs it's not a trope that you won't get away with arguing with the ref in rugby🤷.
The classes playing are all the same where I live anyway.

Ok @KO81 Mine have both played football and we’ve never seen that and we live in a rough part of the country. But yeah, all rugby players and their parents are solid decent middle-class respectable people and all footballers and their parents are thugs. This is mumsnet after all.

That's how I men my husband. At University. He was on the Rugby team. It helped being a student nurse. I was used to the sight of blood. Just make sure he wears a gumshield.

And it may comes as a shock but excessive consumption of alcohol , crude sexism and initation games isn't just the preserve of men. I was on the University Hockey team !!!!. And thank God I wore a gumshield.

He’s 5, let him play whatever sport he wants and raise him not to be a sexist idiot regardless. YABU to tell him he can’t do a sport on the basis of your own prejudice. Injuries are unlikely to occur at that age because it isn’t played full contact and there’s every chance he would give it up before 12 anyway.

No contact Rugby until u9s, definitively. Up until that point just tag rugby and for most clubs even that isn’t actual games until u7s. 5 year olds will basically be playing catch and running round obstacle poles. Rugby clubs are wonderful things - yes the adults often drink too much, but the sense of community, shared culture and being amongst friends doing something fun in the open air is tremendous. Just try it for a bit and see if your son loves it.

DS (12) has been playing since he was 2, DD (10) took it up last year after years of trailing round, watching her brother play. Nothing but a positive experience from us. DS had a fully 50/50 mixed team before they split into single sex teams and the boys were in awe of the girls - they were superb. If anything, it's taught him that women are very much his equal. We see the same ethos in DD's current minis team.

The culture is very much one of inclusion, respect and teamwork. Regardless of ability, everyone on the squad gets to play at least half a match at fixtures, whereas in football it's not unusual for a child to sit on the benches for a full game. Backchat, to referees, coaches, or the opposition is simply not tolerated and the children will actively pull each other up about it - this trait has carried over into DS's other sports as well as his attitude to his school teachers.

At 5, I'd suggest letting him have a go. We lost numerous players once they moved from tag to contact as many stopped enjoying it and the training commitment stepped up a gear, which they couldn't, or didn't want to, commit to. You really don't need to worry about a misogynistic, drinking culture from a bunch of 5yr olds.

Injury is a bigger concern, in fact DS has just finished a 3 week 'Graduated Return to Play' programme following concussion from a head injury just before Christmas. He's an experienced player, been well trained in how to fall, but yes, injuries still happen (although far fewer aged 5). Rugby has massively stepped up when it comes to injuries, concussion in particular, and I have never seen a group of coaches, first aiders, physios and safe guarders move so fast than when DS sustained his head injury. He went straight to A&E, I had follow up calls from the team physio and his coach for the next 3 weeks and he had to attend two GP appointments before he was allowed to return to play. Rugby takes head injuries incredibly seriously and personally, watching all the procedures kick in, I found it incredibly reassuring.

As an aside, DS is a small, lean, super fast sprinter, so he plays out on the wing - I've positively encouraged this as it keeps him away from the huge front row....worth giving some thought to

@PotatoPie888

Ok *@KO81* Mine have both played football and we’ve never seen that and we live in a rough part of the country. But yeah, all rugby players and their parents are solid decent middle-class respectable people and all footballers and their parents are thugs. This is mumsnet after all.

S’not what I said. Why is it when people talk about their own personal experiences on here, making it clear it’s their own personal experiences, people come along to tell them they’re wrong? That’s Mumsnet, it seems.

Stereotype alert - but I taught lots of rugby and football students at A level for over 20 years and I can tell you one thing that stands out a country mile: the rugby 'lads' are very 'laddish' when it comes to drinking etc but so very polite and considerate in every day activities.

Footballers - not so much, They are somehow 'tighter' individuals. more self centred and prone to small outbursts similar to "It's not fair".

Something about the different team cultures rubs off and, if I had had kids, I would by far prefer then to take up rugby to football - and I come from a footballing family!!

Not that there's anything wrong or inherently nasty about the footballers. Just that rugby, as a cohort, seems, more comfortable in its physicality, they have less to prove, socially, and are 'softer' in their behaviour.

Doubtless someone else will have an entirely different take on it, but that's my two penn'orth

@KO81 but it’s funny that everyone’s experiences are exactly the same, and when you challenge the middle-class equals good, working-class equals bad, you are met with a

The likelihood of your ds continuing rugby for another 10 years even if he enjoys it now isn’t actually that high. At his age he is just learning about life, exploring everything and having as much fun as possible.

My dd was part of a great and family oriented club. She loved the social side of things more than the playing tbh. Wholesome fun. But had to stop going when girls and boys were split by sex at 11 as there was no girl’s team and she didn’t want to go another club.

Let your ds do this fgs. At 5 my dd was wearing pretty dresses and sparkly crowns. These days it’s all about sports branded goods. Children change beyond all recognition.

Our son started with a rugby league local team at age 4 in their “Cubs” team. Fantastic environment, very supportive and very much about instilling good behaviours. Son now in the under 9s not sure how long he’ll continue but our experience has been very positive. In terms on contact rugby league starts this earlier than Union but they introduce it slowly and teach them how to tackle properly.

Our club it’s about every kid get some time in a game regardless of ability.

@PotatoPie888

Ok *@KO81* Mine have both played football and we’ve never seen that and we live in a rough part of the country. But yeah, all rugby players and their parents are solid decent middle-class respectable people and all footballers and their parents are thugs. This is mumsnet after all.

I've always understood that this is based in the roots of the games, how they were 'invented' in the first place, how they became codified, multi national - I taught sports hostory for a few years, it's quite fascinating, if outdated and entirely separated from the sports of today.

But it really doesn't bear much in common with the games of today. I live in an area that is big in rugby union, but the local team, good as it is/was, has always been working class.

Rugby history would have it that league is for working men, had 'machine time' contracts to protect their bosses from loss of working hours and that union was for men of money, who didn't have employers that needed this. It was broadly true in the North/South divide, mainly because of the factories up North.

As for football - all the players were working men, their bosses needed them fit to work on Monday, s the sport was no contact. Lots and lost of sport psych history research will tell you that the behaviour on the terraces, the thugishness, gangs/firms, was the catharisis for perceived slights on the field, whereas the physicality and contact of rugby on the pitch made that unecesary - the game conatined it's own catharsis. Neither players nor spectators had to wait for 'justice' after a sticky tackle in rugby.

Sorry to bore, but I always found looking at the roots of sports, their different characters fascinating. I think it is a pity that this part of sport history is not taught much any more. Many people just don't know how their sports began or why there are such distinctive 'flavours' to each!

Like gross drinking games, sexism, just all round bad behaviour and treatment of women, initiation games to fit in etc

Which sports do you think men don’t indulge in this stuff?

I’d pick rugby over football any day.

gross drinking games, sexism, just all round bad behaviour and treatment of women, initiation games to fit in etc .... "can describe any group of men that meet up"

May I take this opportunity to point out that those words do not describe the atmosphere at any cycling club I've ever been part of? Not even the racing BMXers. Never mind the trackies, cyclo-Xers, road racers, club run regulars, Speedway fans, Zwifters.... None of the cyclists I've met socialise like this -- yet form all/predominantly male groups.

The rowdiest club members I've observed directly were female swimmers... DD said the rowers had worst reputation for being arrogant rowdy jocks at her posh 6th form.  DH says it amuses him no end to watch on telly enormous pro rugby players apologise & defer instantly to diminutive referees.  You don't see that happen in elite men's footie...

@CuriousaboutSamphire This is not boring! I find this fascinating. For reasons that are too complicated to explain here, I have done a lot of research on the origins of Rugby League. Rugby (as it was then) was considered to be a gentleman’s game and therefore should remain amateur and as such unpaid. The northern players who excelled at the game could not afford to take time off their manual (often coalmining) jobs to play. The middle-classes couldn’t grasp this and refused to accommodate these players and hence Rugby League, a professional game, began. The rugby Union is a gentleman’s’ game’ is much cherished by its devotees as much now as it was then. It’s also classist and snobbish and bloody bollocks (ime).

Sons all played rugby, they now have good careers. First grandson now playing tag rugby, not a shot glass in sight. There's injuries in any sport, football, cricket, tennis. Heck they can fall off a bike.

Please let him go it's a good family hobby

[quote PotatoPie888]@KO81 but it’s funny that everyone’s experiences are exactly the same, and when you challenge the middle-class equals good, working-class equals bad, you are met with a [/quote]
You’re focusing on class when that hasn’t been mentioned. By anyone, I don’t think. You’re assuming I’m middle class because my brothers played rugby? That’s your projection. They also played football. And cricket. And Bulldog. My brother who still plays rugby’s son is the football ref. We also grew up on a struggling dairy farm. Pretty working class.

I’m talking about conduct of players in two games, not whether they’re working or middle class. It seems like the only issues of middle class or working class being good or bad are coming from your own prejudices.

Read @CuriousaboutSamphire’s post, it’s very interesting.

OH and my rugby mad son international player his injuries are from kite surfing 🙈

@sausagedogsforever

I probably am being unreasonable but, my DS aged 5 really wants to do rugby. He once had a taster session, loved it and has asked to go since (for a good year). So shows no signs of getting over the urge.

I am thinking maybe I should take him again to another taster (maybe he won't like it) but also what if he loves it?

I used to like watching rugby and I find the games much more family friendly to watch than football matches. However, I've heard terrible things about rugby players and rugby playing culture? Like gross drinking games, sexism, just all round bad behaviour and treatment of women, initiation games to fit in etc.
is this really what it's like? Does anyone have any experience?
The other issue is injury, it's likely in a sport like that, so do I really want to encourage this?
Any advice welcome. Has anyone got a rugby playing son/husband?
Am I being unreasonable?

You are looking at rugby as it was in the 60s and 70s and gleefully written up in The Art of Coarse Rugby. It's a perfectly respectable sport and my DD has no problem with her DCs playing it.

What? The origins of rugby Union and rugby league are literally all to do with class. It still is, that’s why only private schools play and hardly any state schools do. I give up!

@Muchmorethan raises the important point I think - you need to suss out the clubs. Our most local club is a very big one and we quickly realised it was not the right environment - ridiculously strict and high pressured considering it was a bunch of 7 year olds (DS got shouted at for asking to go to the toilet)!

We found a different club and it was wonderful. V inclusive, v encouraging - all players were given a chance and the coaches were very sensitive to different abilities. We had a few children who weren't NT which would not have been accommodated at the original club and two very overweight and unfit children who were gently encouraged and then hugely praised as they made progress. Excellent team spirit too.

I did worry about injury although rugby is working to improve on this.

Hence ‘largely true’.

@KO81, something is true or it's not.