AIBU to not want my son to do rugby because of the culture?

[sausagedogsforever]

I probably am being unreasonable but, my DS aged 5 really wants to do rugby. He once had a taster session, loved it and has asked to go since (for a good year). So shows no signs of getting over the urge.

I am thinking maybe I should take him again to another taster (maybe he won't like it) but also what if he loves it?

I used to like watching rugby and I find the games much more family friendly to watch than football matches. However, I've heard terrible things about rugby players and rugby playing culture? Like gross drinking games, sexism, just all round bad behaviour and treatment of women, initiation games to fit in etc.
is this really what it's like? Does anyone have any experience?
The other issue is injury, it's likely in a sport like that, so do I really want to encourage this?
Any advice welcome. Has anyone got a rugby playing son/husband?
Am I being unreasonable?

@KO81 the most feared team in our league were all farmers, they were terrifying back in the day super fit and huge 😅

He's 5! Chances are he'll have a hundred and one different hobbies before he settles on one.

However, if he does still do this as a boy/young adult, I'd much rather he was involved in playing rugby than football!

The gross drinking games don't start until colts, at the earliest. I've been involved in rugby culture since mine were tiny, I've never seen sexist behaviour in mixed company but that maybe that my club has a successful women's team.

The worst behaviour seems to take place on tour but again modified if women are around. TBH if you teach your son to be respectful of women, and men then it shouldn't be a problem.

He's FIVE. Get a sense of proportion. Next you'll be thinking he shouldn't learn to swim in case it leads to unbridled teen sex on the beach in Ibiza.

Art 5, there won't be any initiations, sex games, booze, misogyny . The only culture he knows is yours.

Long before he reaches boozing age he'll probably have tried and discarded a dozen different sports, hobbies, interests, social groups.

For now, just let him enjoy the benefits of rugby; lots of healthy excercise, fitness, fresh air, a good appetite, new pals, being one of a team. Something to watch on a screen that isn't about guns and mindless cartoon figures.

@StrychnineInTheSandwiches

Hence ‘largely true’.

@KO81, something is true or it's not.

Cripes. It’s ‘largely true’ in that on a case-by-case basis, in my own experience through growing up playing the games, having brothers that play the games, our children playing the games, that culture of a thuggish game with ‘gentlemanly’ conduct (rugby) is the case more often than not, if that turn of phrase is more agreeable to you. And with regards to football, it’s a fantastic game but the culture has changed and as a result in my experience , that is where I have witnessed poor conduct by players but often from those off the pitch.

That is my viewpoint and I stand by it. Because it’s based on my own experiences. And does not mean I’m suggesting that footballers are all thugs and rugby players upstanding gentlemen. Nor is it a suggestion of class, as one poster seems to think. It’s just how I think the cultures of the games have gone. On the whole. In my experience. Largely.

This is exhausting. I’m going for lunch.

[quote PotatoPie888]@CuriousaboutSamphire This is not boring! I find this fascinating. For reasons that are too complicated to explain here, I have done a lot of research on the origins of Rugby League. Rugby (as it was then) was considered to be a gentleman’s game and therefore should remain amateur and as such unpaid. The northern players who excelled at the game could not afford to take time off their manual (often coalmining) jobs to play. The middle-classes couldn’t grasp this and refused to accommodate these players and hence Rugby League, a professional game, began. The rugby Union is a gentleman’s’ game’ is much cherished by its devotees as much now as it was then. It’s also classist and snobbish and bloody bollocks (ime).[/quote]
Yep. But Union was never so pure, despite what the early proponents would have liked to belive.

Gloucester rugby (club and grass roots), amongst others, has always been rooted in working class, players etc. Paid for, supported by employers, just like League or football. Early players were as likely to be farmers as anything else.

The working men were also the reasons for the different times matches were played - Wednesday and Saturday half day closing. Sundays in some areas, but mostly not because of Church - and having a day off to recover for work on Monday morning. University Wednesday sports afternoon has its root here too - support staff would have their half day off paid work and could accompany the teams.

There is so much that we take for granted that came about because of/hand in hand with football etc. It is fascinating!

[quote justasking111]@KO81 the most feared team in our league were all farmers, they were terrifying back in the day super fit and huge 😅[/quote]
My brothers were probably similar. As wide up top as they were tall.

All but one don’t play any longer but they still have the rugby ‘look’. Hench and with bust noses. I think my H was a bit worried when he first met them.

@Springlikely

My DS15 has played rugby since he was 5 and also plays football. The culture in Rugby is so much more about team work and respect than it is in football. Ime football attracts or creates over inflated egos. Plus in rugby there's no rolling on the floor with great drama after a little tap, like I see in football every week.

Our coach comes down heavily on any player needing the "magic sponge" and they're replaced on the pitch

My daughter plays rugby, and it has really enhanced her life. It has brought her some lifelong friends and she and us have had fun supporting her in doing it. There are some cultural aspects which I do not approve of entirely- the singing of (very) rude (and quite funny) songs being one, and amongst some quite a lot of drinking (this is true for women rugby players as well). The odd male rugby player is an unreconstructed misogynist, but this would be the case in many sports, and the women in the game are more than capable of dealing with this.

Interesting @CuriousaboutSamphire I know that coming from a mining family, RL was king and RU was for posh boys. Now there’s a stereotype. The idea of having Wednesday afternoon off was a none starter. I would be interested to know more about RU roots pre the split because I only really looked into the RL side of things. I would have assumed farmers in those days would be relatively wealthy, certainly in comparison to factory workers and miners? It is interesting.

Farm workers - used be called serfs

And there were a lot of posh blokes in GlosRCs history anyway. It's just that the feeder clubs locally are not, Forest miners, farmers, tenants etc etc.

That's the problem with the stereotyping and whitewashing of tthe history of sport. The lines get drawn quite sharply and nobody considers the grey areas. Living in one of those grey areas helps reaslise that it exists I was born close to the heart of League, with a lot of football in the family.

Farm workers, not farmers? I see.

So how did they manage to play without wages and get time off if they were poor?

@PotatoPie888

So how did they manage to play without wages and get time off if they were poor?

That's where the professional/amatuer divide is seen not to be as firm as many think.

Many were supported by their employers - some of whom would have been club patrons too. Others had a kitty that would make up lost wages. Supporters clubs would have raised money too.

It's also why evening training happened. Why matches take part at odd times - see early pitch lighting for after hours matches. Why they are winter sports etc etc

There are all sorts of blurring of the League/Union professional/amateur lines. All part of the fun

You can’t say it is the behaviour of every male group. Badminton players are not boorish or sexist!

So broken time payments were covered for southern players, but not northern players? I see.

@PotatoPie888

So broken time payments were covered for southern players, but not northern players? I see.

Goodness me. Your axe must be razor sharp by now.

my 3 sons have played rugby all the way through from juniors to seniors and I think it is a brilliant environment - very strong on respect very inclusive ie of different body shapes, build teams that are far stronger than any I have seen in football. they have developed great friendships where they are very comfortable with eachother and have a lot of trust.
There is a social side that involves some drinking but to be honest I have really seen good drinking role models IYSWIM ie a pint after training and a laugh but not out of hand.
When I was a uni there was much talk of putting 10p pieces in your foreskin and such like but there really isnt any of that in kids rugby

Yanbu. Husband played rugby and still loves it. I have witnessed much gross behaviour (and frequently from otherwise very very nice men). Lots of bullshit about 'rugby is a thugs game played by gentleman'. Not true. People deliberately missing the point that if he gets into it now, he will eventually be in that culture. My kids played for awhile at our local club. I didn't love it there either (the drinking culture, the underage drinking, etc). There are other sports (swimming, tennis, etc) where I don't see that hard drinking, womanising, laddish culture. Now, all that being said...if he really liked it, I'd probably let him go as team sport and physical activity is so good. And hope that times change.

@PotatoPie888

So broken time payments were covered for southern players, but not northern players? I see.

Not quite, no!

I have tried to google this and it's so hard to find information, I am working from memory!

Machine time was prevalent in football, all over, and league rugby. Because they were invented to be working class sports. Employers had to be recompensed for any time lost due to injury. This led to those sports becoming professional very early, as employers and supporters wanted more sport, better quality - that and leagues were invented, trains made playing against teams further away possible - which led to codification of the rules. They used to play one half by the rules of one team and the other by the rules of the second team - a bit like World Cup Rugby does now, the Southern and Northern Hemispheres agree on which rules to play by.

Union stayed amateur, like cricket etc, because it was mainly played by gentlemen. But local agreements were always able to be made to allow working class men to take part.

The North/South divide was not deliberate, nor absolute. It was just that the industrial revolution happened and patterned some sports that way. Because of coal etc.

God, and the 'it's so much better than football' is so boring and clichéd. Not that I like football either! But the self importance around rugby is embarrassing. My friend lives near Twickenham, lots of disgusting stories about the fans on game day. No violence but very anti social behaviour.

@padsi1975

God, and the 'it's so much better than football' is so boring and clichéd. Not that I like football either! But the self importance around rugby is embarrassing. My friend lives near Twickenham, lots of disgusting stories about the fans on game day. No violence but very anti social behaviour.

That’s true of all sport. Except maybe pétanque. It’s tribal hatred in football which leads to violence, and alcohol-fuelled in rugby.

Just take him. Loads of ace rugby clubs near us. Your view is very tainted. Most clubs are massively family friendly. Contact isn't until year5 and then under trained conditions

@Trickleg

In Scotland, contact starts in P4 (SO 7/8 year olds). And that's across all the clubs. They tackle in matches from that age group and gumsheilds are required. Not allowed on without it because they're doing proper down low, arms round, shoulder in tackles.

We have matches right from P1 but it really is just play tag with a ball. P4 onwards is contact. No scrum or ruck though. That starts in P5 but mostly gets heavily used in P6.

My DS is 4 and joined at 3 it's been fantastic for him in terms of confidence and playing with other kids post lockdown. Skills like throwing, catching,kicking are great for gross motor. I think the worries you have are more associated with older players and certainly you wouldn't find an issue with those things at his age.