To think that men shouldn't be named as women in newspapers if they have committed sexual offences?

[WandaWomblesaurus73]

Just that really - I'm seeing more and more newspaper reports where women are being implicated in weird sexual crimes and the you see the picture and it's obviously a man.

Now I totally get that if someone is transitioning it's polite to call them by their preferred name etc - but AIBU to think that some of these criminals are just taking the piss?

Here are some recent examples - and there are loads more.

www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/19802592.northwich-woman-jailed-cocaine-fuelled-sex-dog/

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10339797/amp/Thumb-sucking-paedophile-claims-identify-five-year-old-girl-comes-court-dressed-ELF.html

How can anyone think this is ok? And will these "women" end up in women's prisons out of politeness?

Any future crimes they commit whilst in prison are not OK, but at least they will be committed on fellow prisoners rather than the general public.

So this is an example of society’s “evolved opinion”?

Do you know anything about why most women are imprisoned, @MorningStarling ? They are mostly there for offences such as benefits fraud or non-payment of television licences, or as a consequence of a chaotic childhood, leading to problems of addiction or being vulnerable to being prostituted, or they’re there because they’ve been victims of domestic violence, or basically because they’re poor.

If you read any professional/scholarly criminology, you might learn something about the very different kinds of crimes for which female offenders are committed to imprisonment.

But mostly, I’m just at your lack of compassion. Evolved opinion, obvs.

You are an absolute scumbag MorningStarling, that's a truly awful post.

I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person.
Lovely

@MorningStarling so prisoners aren't "normal"?

What are they then?

Women get sent to prison for crimes such a non payment of the TV licence fee...

Do they really deserve to get raped because of that?

I think perhaps you are not a normal person. You have no understanding or empathy.

If you have children I hope they are male. As you seem to have no empathy for females.

@MorningStarling

I honestly can't get too worked up about whether a rapist believes they are male or female. Clearly I'm in the minority but to me the term #notourcrimes applies because I'm one of the people who has never committed rape or sexual assault, not because I'm female.

There was a thread a few weeks ago about the Northwich dog abuser. I said then what I'll say now, I genuinely don't care whether someone like that is locked up in a male prison or a female one, the important thing is that they are taken away from society. Any future crimes they commit whilst in prison are not OK, but at least they will be committed on fellow prisoners rather than the general public. Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person.

To me it doesn't matter whether crime statistics are skewed by so-called "female" rapists. What matters is that rapes aren't committed, and if they do that the offender is locked up. Suggesting it is harmful that a transgender rapist has their crime recorded as a female one implies that the victim is less of a victim because their attacker was "only" a woman. I'd suggest many rape victims are traumatised by the crime itself, which prison their attacker ends up in and which list the crime is recorded on is only a minor concern.

Society has evolved and now believes that someone can become a member of the gender they were not born as. Whether you think that's right or wrong, that's where we are. There were similar arguments when rights for homosexuals were being promoted decades ago - they were identified and treated differently in prison because they were deemed at greater risk of attacking others. If we believe a person has the right to choose their sexuality, now their gender, we must allow them that right without limitation. We can't say "well you can live as a woman except when it comes to playing sport or going to prison" - either a man can transition to become a woman, or they can't.

Either a man can transition to become a woman or they can’t

A man can never change sex to become a woman. It is physically impossible. A man can be a transgender person who ‘identifies as a woman’ but this does not mean he is a woman and has access to women’s single sex spaces. No.

And how is it that you have so little empathy for women in prison? That in your view they should serve their sentence plus additional punishment by being locked up with men and raped/ assaulted?
I think it was on this thread that someone posted an image with statistics around women prisoners - many of them have been in care homes, many of them are from disadvantaged backgrounds, many of them have been previous victims of assault, many of them are NOT in prison for violent crimes.
They do not deserve to serve their prison sentence in fear of male prisoners alongside them. I’m disturbed that you would think this.

Finally - don’t you understand statistics? If male crimes are being wrongly recorded as female crimes then women lose justification for the single sex spaces that protect them from being victims of crime.

98% of sexual assaults are committed by men and 2% by women becomes:

60% of sexual assaults are committed by men and 40% by ‘women’*. Those crimes are still being committed by men but they’re now hidden by the figures.
So the need to have separate single sex spaces to keep women safe can be argued against as there’s no longer a figure that says 98% of sexual assaults are committed by men.

There would be lots of other consequences to wrongly recording the sex of the perpetrator.

*the figures here are made up to illustrate the point. Whatever the new figure of crimes by men recorded as by women would be it would obscure the truth.

I genuinely don't care whether someone like that is locked up in a male prison or a female one, the important thing is that they are taken away from society. Any future crimes they commit whilst in prison are not OK, but at least they will be committed on fellow prisoners rather than the general public. Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person.

This is enough to dismiss any opinion you have on this matter. I can't believe you could read this back and not see what is so disturbing about it.

Isn't it odd how no one in support of this agenda ever seems able to demonstrate empathy, compassion or basic regard for human rights in people they dislike or politically disagree with?

I may not like a person. I may wholly and entirely disagree with them and everything they choose to stand for. I may be truly revolted by their behaviour. I am still not going to accept a society in which they are abused, ill treated or subordinated. That seems to be the main difference between my perspective as someone 'not kind' and those who feel they're on the 'right side of history'.

That isn't a history I will be co operating with happening. It would be like a world run by bloody toddlers.

So the women of Berlin, mass raped by Russian soldiers at the close of WW 2 probably deserved it because in all probability a significant proportion had at some point supported Hitler’s regime and hence made “better” victims
Okay then.

@DrSbaitso

I genuinely don't care whether someone like that is locked up in a male prison or a female one, the important thing is that they are taken away from society. Any future crimes they commit whilst in prison are not OK, but at least they will be committed on fellow prisoners rather than the general public. Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person.

This is enough to dismiss any opinion you have on this matter. I can't believe you could read this back and not see what is so disturbing about it.

Agree that this is disturbing. Have a think about the sorts of reasons why women get sent to prison (as well as some of the issues they face including addiction and poverty) and also have a think about why you are so keen to centre the rights of a male rapist in order to deter women from crime.

I've seen the 'rape the other girl' mentality before, but never so coldly and lacking in empathy before.

I cannot reject MorningStarling's post enough.

Let me ask you this.

Ordinarily, would you support the introduction of rape as a punishment for shoplifting? That the sentencing guidelines for judges could include sending convicted defendants to be violated by paid state rapists?

I will assume the answer is no. So why be so glib about sending a shoplifting teenage girl to prison, knowing that there is a risk she will be raped by a male prisoner? Rape should not be part of the penalty for any prisoner!

We have separated prisons since Victorian times, because women were assaulted by male inmates in the gaols. We are now going backwards, in terms of human rights!

So why be so glib about sending a shoplifting teenage girl to prison, knowing that there is a risk she will be raped by a male prisoner?

Because she isn't a "normal person".

I'm rarely lost for words, but that staggered me. That the threat of rape should be weaponised and consciously used as a deterrent within women's prisons, and seen as less troublesome than a rape that occurs outside prison confines. That we shouldn't be concerned about locking men up with women because if anything happens, the women will have it coming by virtue of being in prison.

I hope to God that's a troll. I get the feeling it's a serious post. I hope it's not.

@MorningStarling

I honestly can't get too worked up about whether a rapist believes they are male or female. Clearly I'm in the minority but to me the term #notourcrimes applies because I'm one of the people who has never committed rape or sexual assault, not because I'm female.

There was a thread a few weeks ago about the Northwich dog abuser. I said then what I'll say now, I genuinely don't care whether someone like that is locked up in a male prison or a female one, the important thing is that they are taken away from society. Any future crimes they commit whilst in prison are not OK, but at least they will be committed on fellow prisoners rather than the general public. Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person.

To me it doesn't matter whether crime statistics are skewed by so-called "female" rapists. What matters is that rapes aren't committed, and if they do that the offender is locked up. Suggesting it is harmful that a transgender rapist has their crime recorded as a female one implies that the victim is less of a victim because their attacker was "only" a woman. I'd suggest many rape victims are traumatised by the crime itself, which prison their attacker ends up in and which list the crime is recorded on is only a minor concern.

Society has evolved and now believes that someone can become a member of the gender they were not born as. Whether you think that's right or wrong, that's where we are. There were similar arguments when rights for homosexuals were being promoted decades ago - they were identified and treated differently in prison because they were deemed at greater risk of attacking others. If we believe a person has the right to choose their sexuality, now their gender, we must allow them that right without limitation. We can't say "well you can live as a woman except when it comes to playing sport or going to prison" - either a man can transition to become a woman, or they can't.

Fuck me, I’ve rarely heard such a callous point of view in my life. A large percentage of women in prison have already been traumatised by men, but you think that we should just throw them to the wolves again. Rape as a punishment for not paying the tv licence, there’s a new one….

I rarely post but I feel physically sick after reading Morningstarlings post. It's just so inhumane.

Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place.

Thats possibly the worst thing I've read on Mumsnet. It also shows a startling depth of ignorance of why the majority of women are in prison in the first place; they are being punished for crimes caused directly by poverty.

Putting common human decency to one side for a moment, it would literally be cheaper for the taxpayer to give women at risk of prison more money, than to put them in prison and their children in care. It would also free up much needed prison spaces.

@Joisanofthedales

I rarely post but I feel physically sick after reading Morningstarlings post. It's just so inhumane.

Totally agree, it's horrific.

This is a very disturbing misogynistic world view Morningstarlings. Women prisoners are in the main in prison for petty crimes, they deserve to be raped or are just collateral damage because what? They’ve broken a law? So good enough for them.

Btw I know 2 women who are currently in prison.m for shoplifting. They have had very chaotic lives full of abuse from their earliest days as a direct result of Being Female. Something they can’t or couldn’t identify out of. Both got into drugs & stole to feed their habit.

But he ho they’ll know better next time eh?

It is not an evolved person, let alone society, that does not understand that when society deprives a person of their liberty as a penalty as having judged them as guilty of crimes for which they stood accused, society voluntarily undertakes a duty of care to that individual, to ensure that while so incarcerated, they do not want for adequate food, shelter, medical care, and most importantly that they themselves are not placed recklessly or negligently at personal risk.

I've never seen anyone advocate for an international war crime as a punishment for a woman shoplifting.

Further, I enquire what is the purpose and deterrent of prison for rapists, if they know that their punishment for raping women will be access to a enclosed community of women who cannot escape?

Why on earth would you care so much about torturing shoplifting women with the presence of rapists, that you would be prepared to reward the rapists to achieve it?

mbonsnz

Exactly.

It shows blatantly how inhumane the presence of male sexual predators in women's prisons is - and how inhumane those who support it are.
It must be stopped.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Further, I enquire what is the purpose and deterrent of prison for rapists, if they know that their punishment for raping women will be access to a enclosed community of women who cannot escape?

Why on earth would you care so much about torturing shoplifting women with the presence of rapists, that you would be prepared to reward the rapists to achieve it?

mbonsnz

Exactly.

This.

You, serial, serious male sex offender who has left a number of women's lives in wreckage behind you - your punishment shall be being locked up 23 hours a day in a male prison. Oh but you can be locked up with this female shop lifter if you prefer, and you can do what you like to her, since being a criminal she deserves it. Go do that voodoo that you do so well.

Honestly, wtaf is being put in the water these days?

Further, I enquire what is the purpose and deterrent of prison for rapists, if they know that their punishment for raping women will be access to a enclosed community of women who cannot escape?

I saw this on Twitter the other day (via Ovarit):

a lesbian woman i came into contact with through my work was raped by a trans identified male over the holiday weekend, after she turned them down. she sobbed telling me she can bear to report it because they will lock him up with other women.

Prisons are not nice places, they're not meant to be nice places, the fear of getting locked up with a transgender rapist for 23 hours a day serves as a good deterrent not to be sent to prison in the first place. I don't want them to abuse a female prisoner, I don't want them to abuse anyone - but if they do, better their victim be a prisoner than a normal person.

Good lord. I can only hope you are a troll and there isn’t a woman walking around with that opinion.
We are all a few bad choice away from being homeless or in prison.
As said up thread so many women who are in prison are there because they have had chaotic backgrounds, often as the result of the behaviour of men.

I would report your comment but I think we need to let it stand so people can see what some people think of other women.