Why does 'wokeness' annoy people so much?

[twwindow]

Isn't it just trying to make the world a better place but making people feel accepted no matter their race, gender etc?

It seems to wind some people up so bad - and it's usually those that are part of a majority group that gets wound up most by it (usually white/men) - is it because they feel threatened?

Whenever anyone stands up for a cause they are automatically called woke - and it's now as if it's a bad thing.

It's sad, I see people fed up with 'wokeness' as code for 'we can't get away with our racist, sexist BS anymore as people are calling us out'.

Do does that mean you will stop talkiing about gender as though it's real and internal and universal? Because it's hurtful to me

Sorry, can’t use that as a source. It’s biased. Next.

Classic!

@Blibbyblobby

This is all really interesting, and though provoking. Off the top of my head, my honest answer is, I don’t know.

I want to give it more thought and see if I can rationalise and explain. We might run out of thread before I’ve had a chance to, but thank you for the question.

Still going?

No. Thank. You.

And I believe deliberately using language you’ve been told is hurtful is wrong.

I find it extremely hurtful to be told I must accept men can be lesbians, or being forcibly termed “queer” or “cis” without my agreement, or being told that I’m transphobic for believing men aren’t women, or “whorephobic” for believing that prostitution harms women, and so on. Why aren’t you respecting my hurt feelings?

[quote Bingbangbongbash]@Waitwhat23

Sorry, can’t use that as a source. It’s biased. Next.[/quote]
Better?

Surveys in Scotland and in England.

However, I also believe that everyone has the right to live as they wish to. That encompasses trans men & women being welcomed into (most) spaces that align with their presented gender but excluded from others because of their body shape where necessary. To be more specific, I don’t have a problem with trans women in female toilets, but I absolutely do in crisis centres etc. I know there will be some bad actors in all situations but on balance I believe the risk to be low enough to be something worth living with - I know not everyone agrees, but my opinion is valid enough to be stated.

Everyone has the right to live as they wish to - religious women have the right to follow the dictats of their religion and not be discriminated against by being unable to access female only single sex services if there is a chance a male person is in there. Including males however they identify or think they feel means those women cannot live as they wish to and it's not only religious women, it's women who come from particular communities, women who have suffered trauma, women who just want their dignity and privacy respected. Allowing males to live as they choose and access any of these spaces and services stops women, for whom those services are designed and set up for, living as they choose.

If transwomen are women enough to enter female only toilets, how can you then argue they are not women enough for a crisis service? That is the problem, open one door and you have to open all the doors.

@JohnHuffam1812

On the living as a woman questioning? I did come back and say that I should have said living as a transwoman. But that apparently isn't good enough cause it doesn't allow you tomlaunch into your pre planned diatribes.In common parlance btw "living as a woman" means someone who was not born female living under a identity which allows them to present as being female. Its relatively simple, however it doesn't mean they are living the same life as someone who was born female will live or have the same experiences.

Sorry, you don’t get to handwave that away. Changing from “living as a woman” to “living as a transwoman”, acknowledging that “it doesn't mean they are living the same life as someone who was born female will live or have the same experiences” - these are not tiny, trivial adjustments to phrasing that basically just say they same thing. They are exactly the points that women are trying to make that result in us being complained against, forced out of jobs, subject to threats of violence at protests and on social media.

I really think you have, like many, jumped into this with a “both sides must be irrational, the compromise is clear” assumption, not realising that your “rational compromise” is what one side classes as bigotry so heinous that it entirely justifies being met by the hate, slurs and threats. “They are not cancelled, they are suffering the consequences of their actions” is I believe the phrase they use to justify whipping up hatred.

Do you realise that when Genderist activists say “trans women are women” they really do mean are women, not live as if they were but are, same claim to womanhood, same authority to say based on their lived experience what a women is, as female bodied people have, without exception - that literally any occasion where female people may want to be counted or segregated based on body sex - a changing room, a smear test, a feminist workshop, a rape support group, a breastfeeding group, a lesbian party, a women-only shortlist, a women’s fast track STEM initiative - is a de facto act of bigotry and hatred for which there can never be a valid reason? And that any experiences or needs that female people have because they are female - harassment, maternity leave, the general daily grind of being a little less respected - are nothing to do with being a woman and therefore should not form any part of feminist analysis or politics?

@foxgoosefinch

And I believe deliberately using language you’ve been told is hurtful is wrong.

I find it extremely hurtful to be told I must accept men can be lesbians, or being forcibly termed “queer” or “cis” without my agreement, or being told that I’m transphobic for believing men aren’t women, or “whorephobic” for believing that prostitution harms women, and so on. Why aren’t you respecting my hurt feelings?

I’m not saying any of those things to you.

@bordermidgebite

Do does that mean you will stop talkiing about gender as though it's real and internal and universal? Because it's hurtful to me

I don’t talk about gender in those ways.

Sorry you gave me the impression that you feel transwomen are women, but this thread has got confusing

Here’s what I learnt from this thread about why people are so annoyed by woke. Not only do they label you ——phobic if you put across an opposing argument. They will also call everything you say a ‘strawman’ argument. They will never answer a direct question. They will accuse others is a pile on to shut down debate. They will tie themselves in knots arguing for something and the almost forgetting what the argument was about. Finally they do absolutely nothing. Zilch. They talk a lot but do absolutely nothing. But because their talk is based on the excluding and bothering people who don’t agree with them, they can steam roll their wants through intimidation and aggression.

@Blibbyblobby

I get to do whatever I want, thanks, and yes they are small adjustments. As said, the whole pushing of that question was so that a pre formulated answer can be given.

There is hatred and slurs on both sides, I'm sorry but even here where transwomen are being characterised as a threat to women who just change their identity on a whim, that is a total slur.

"They are exactly the points that women are trying to make that result in us being complained against, forced out of jobs, subject to threats of violence at protests and on social media."

So far the evidence of forced out of jobs is pretty scant, the one with the dance company appears to have been down to bad behaviour at a company event for example.

What do you expect transwomen to do then? Should they not just be extended as much as they possible can within reason? Should there be exclusive women only spaces that even transwomen should not be able to enter, yes of course, its unreasonable to say that too. So yes, both sides of this debate are being unreasonable ( although what a transwomen is doing at a smear test ( although they can be administered by men ofc) I don't know.

In common parlance btw "living as a woman" means someone who was not born female living under a identity which allows them to present as being female

How, exactly, does one present as being female? Which female presentation do they pick? Are females all identical in their presentation like something out of the Stepford Wives?

Transwomen are being classed as any more a threat to women than any man

If you see otherwise please report and get the post deleted

@sst1234

Then don't create strawmen. Every time someone says "So you're saying that" and then presents a point that you didn't make its a strawman.

The question was answered.

There has been a pile on, fortunately I'm not easily intimidated so I'm quite happy to come back to keep going.

You are misrepresenting what has happened.

What do you expect transwomen to do then?

Well to paraphrase a well known transwoman - expand the bandwidth of what it means to be a man.

[quote JohnHuffam1812]@sst1234

Then don't create strawmen. Every time someone says "So you're saying that" and then presents a point that you didn't make its a strawman.

The question was answered.

There has been a pile on, fortunately I'm not easily intimidated so I'm quite happy to come back to keep going.

You are misrepresenting what has happened.[/quote]
That’s another one - ‘misrepresenting’. I mean you couldn’t just disagree. It would have to be that other person is misrepresenting. Because there is no way you could be wrong, the other person is either stupid or wilfully ‘misrepresenting’. To be honest I picked up so many flags for that kind of woke behaviour on this thread, it’s been enlightening.

So far the evidence of forced out of jobs is pretty scant, the one with the dance company appears to have been down to bad behaviour at a company event for example.

Really?

Allison Bailey
Maya Forstater
Professor Kathleen Stock

Just 3 examples of many.

You're either woefully uninformed or just refusing to acknowledge facts.

@VestofAbsurdity

"How, exactly, does one present as being female? Which female presentation do they pick? Are females all identical in their presentation like something out of the Stepford Wives?"

Its one of the preformulated responses to the question that I noted would happen.

As a transwoman how does one present as female? Well anyone that wasn't so ideologically entrenched would say, wearing clothes that are generally worn by women, by asking to be known by a name generally thought to be used by women, by presenting that image to the world and living under it?

I’m not saying any of those things to you.

Like it or not, you're enabling it. Because you prioritise the feelings of males who claim to be women.

@Waitwhat23

So far the evidence of forced out of jobs is pretty scant, the one with the dance company appears to have been down to bad behaviour at a company event for example.

Really?

Allison Bailey
Maya Forstater
Professor Kathleen Stock

Just 3 examples of many.

You're either woefully uninformed or just refusing to acknowledge facts.

Very true

That’s another one - ‘misrepresenting’. I mean you couldn’t just disagree. It would have to be that other person is misrepresenting. Because there is no way you could be wrong, the other person is either stupid or wilfully ‘misrepresenting’. To be honest I picked up so many flags for that kind of woke behaviour on this thread, it’s been enlightening.

Always is.

males who claim to be women

The definition of transphobia.